[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Oreca and Red Bull Advanced Technologies to develop spec chassis for hydrogen class.

Moan groan spec components etc but this probably makes good sense. Times are tough and having a specialised chassis with a standard hydrogen tank will make it easier to get this off the ground.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...s-chassis.html

Originally Posted by joeb

When I first saw the headline I was thinking that the powertrain was being developed as well, and then thought what's the point? But it appears that this chassis will just be the vessel for people to develop their own hydrogen power plants?

Originally Posted by deggis

It sounds like the Formula E master plan but for hydrogen, so free powertrain but everything else spec.

Originally Posted by Mike E

GreenGT to provide powertrain (battery, motor, transmission) for new hydrogen class. Fuel cell stack open to development.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...ogen-cars.html

I guess i don't understand the hydrogen technology yet, but Oreca Red Bull are making the chassis - tub, suspension, etc. GreenGT is making the motors, transmission, and batteries.

So teams basically get to make the parts that store hydrogen and convert it to electricity?

[Mike E]

I don't really understand it either. The fuel cell stack is the thing that extracts electical energy from the hydrogen fuel. I guess it makes sense for this to be the focus of development since all the other stuff is well understood and highly developed already. I don't know how the battery fits in to this unless it is to store energy recovered under braking, which would surely be a good idea.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Mike E

I don't really understand it either. The fuel cell stack is the thing that extracts electical energy from the hydrogen fuel. I guess it makes sense for this to be the focus of development since all the other stuff is well understood and highly developed already. I don't know how the battery fits in to this unless it is to store energy recovered under braking, which would surely be a good idea.

A battery would also be able to store energy when it is no demanded. This would mean that the fuel cells would at all time produce 100% power, whether on or off throttle. If off throttle the power would go to the battery.
This has the advantage of the fuel cell never having to stop, but just producing consistently (usually a benefit for power sources) and the extra power in the battery can be used for more wheel power or range.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Sorry to double post in quick succession, is there any development allowed or is that largely pointless if everything is going to be BOP'ed?

Originally Posted by Mike E

Unless I am mistaken, which is very possible, LMH and LMDh cars will be homologated for 5 years. I guess this is the whole package, including powertrain. So in that respect, continued development will not be permitted.
And while engine layout is free, max power is limited to 670bhp and torque curves etc will be managed through BoP.

The "car" is indeed the complete car. The homologation is valid until December 2025, and in total 2 cars can be homologated and in total 5 performance related joker updates can be requested (during the entire 5-year period). Critical reliability and safety related updates can be requested separately.

So, no continous development. I think it will be a lot like in DPI. I don't remember when was the last time a DPI had a visible change.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by deggis

I don't remember when was the last time a DPI had a visible change.

Even if there weren't big visibile changes on bodywork, if memory helps me 2018 mazda dpi (or maybe 2019?) was basically a complete new car under the skin since it passed from the original crap riley tub to a new and updated version made by multimatic.

[S griffin]

I can’t remember how much changed. That said it made sense for Mazda to change in 2018/19, as the previous chassis hadn’t lived up to expectations

[carbsmith]

Multimatic was always responsible for the composites work and used for the aero development, and the tub has not changed. The 2018 revision has a completely new rear suspension to use a conventional layout instead of the Riley rocker, new front under aero which was apparently more to fix cooling problems, and some various weight reductions to try to get down to the limit.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Even if there weren't big visibile changes on bodywork, if memory helps me 2018 mazda dpi (or maybe 2019?) was basically a complete new car under the skin since it passed from the original crap riley tub to a new and updated version made by multimatic.

NO, it was not.

The chassis is homologated, hence no changes allowed, bar what IMSA/ACO allowed under their ''Joker'' rule, which were minor.

[CTD]

Just a thought - is there anything stopping a LMDH program to be rehomologated as a LMh?
I know a LMh cannot be rehomologated as LMDH as the monocoque is not build by the permitted manufactures, but to my knowledge there should be nothing stopping a LMDH from scrapping the Hybrid system at Le Mans, adding the needed weight and then run under the same rule set as LMh?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just a thought - is there anything stopping a LMDH program to be rehomologated as a LMh?
I know a LMh cannot be rehomologated as LMDH as the monocoque is not build by the permitted manufactures, but to my knowledge there should be nothing stopping a LMDH from scrapping the Hybrid system at Le Mans, adding the needed weight and then run under the same rule set as LMh?

I hadn't thought of that, but is there a car dimension regulation which wouldn't be met simply? or an aero rule of some type?

[TF110]

I guess that depends on the new lmp2 regs, right?

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by CTD

Just a thought - is there anything stopping a LMDH program to be rehomologated as a LMh?
I know a LMh cannot be rehomologated as LMDH as the monocoque is not build by the permitted manufactures, but to my knowledge there should be nothing stopping a LMDH from scrapping the Hybrid system at Le Mans, adding the needed weight and then run under the same rule set as LMh?

Would it work the other way round as well if the LMh monocoque was designed by one of the approved constructors?

[carbsmith]

Whether it's theoretically possible depends on whether the next gen LMP2 monocoques follow all of the new standards LMH does. They likely do but I haven't seen that officially anywhere public. Once you get past that it's possible to build a car legal for both but basically every LMP2 or LMDh car is in practice going to be 100mm too long as is (same thing with the ORECA 07 to R13 transition though) and they haven't mentioned if LMDh will have the minimum frontal area requirement.

[Speed-King]

Audi and Porsche cooperating closely on LMDH: https://m.motorsport-magazin.com/24h...ercar-daytona/

Main points:

• Audi's new head of motorsports says that the two companies are coordinating their LMDH projects very closely. He and Fritz Ensinger at Porsche are working to identify areas in which there can be a synergy between the two brands.

• Ensinger hopes that more manufactures (e.g. Ferrari and BMW) will join.

• Officially, there has been no decisions on a chassis supplier.

• Audi would prefer to use their DTM I4 turbo engine (mislabeled as a V6 in the article), but Porsche think an NA V8 would be better, as there are some vibration issues with the I4. Audi has solved those for the sprint races in DTM, but in endurance racing it might be another story. It seems likely that both brands will use the same engine.

• Despite cooperating in the development process, both manufactures will race each other hard on track.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Audi and Porsche cooperating closely on LMDH: https://m.motorsport-magazin.com/24h...ercar-daytona/

I guess that's not too much of a surprise.....

[deggis]

Rather disappointing if they're going to share the engine.

Then the two cars will be only differentiated by the teams running them. And the upper bodywork, but that's not a performance differentiator.

[Aysedasi]

Disappointing, but again, pretty much expected, to be honest....

[canaglia]

So it will be basically a kit car.... same lmdh, different bodywork.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by canaglia

So it will be basically a kit car.... same lmdh, different bodywork.

VW-group did the same thing in TCR: the Audi, VW and Seat were all developed and built by Seat Sport on essentially the same platform.

And in GT3, the Lambo is pretty much a re-skinned Audi as well.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Disappointing, but again, pretty much expected, to be honest....

Yes it makes perfect sense, without that synergy I doubt they would be two VAG brands competing .... Its all about cost.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

VW-group did the same thing in TCR: the Audi, VW and Seat were all developed and built by Seat Sport on essentially the same platform.

And in GT3, the Lambo is pretty much a re-skinned Audi as well.

I could agree huracan and R8 share the same engine, even if each of them tune it in a different way as far I know since lamborghini can't use R8 restrictors and reverse, but are however 2 different cars buit on different chassis/platform with different aero and other features.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by canaglia

I could agree huracan and R8 share the same engine, even if each of them tune it in a different way as far I know since lamborghini can't use R8 restrictors and reverse, but are however 2 different cars buit on different chassis/platform with different aero and other features.

Ah, I stand corrected, then!

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Ah, I stand corrected, then!

I think we have a different idea of reskinned audi concept....

[Matador]

Understandable but really disappointing. Would have at least liked Audi and Porsche to use different engines.

Originally Posted by canaglia

I could agree huracan and R8 share the same engine, even if each of them tune it in a different way as far I know since lamborghini can't use R8 restrictors and reverse, but are however 2 different cars buit on different chassis/platform with different aero and other features.

The production cars share the same basic platform and drivetrain components don't they? I wouldn't expect any different for the GT3 cars. If fact doesn't quattro manufacture the spaceframe for both?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Matador

Understandable but really disappointing. Would have at least liked Audi and Porsche to use different engines.









The production cars share the same basic platform and drivetrain components don't they? I wouldn't expect any different for the GT3 cars. If fact doesn't quattro manufacture the spaceframe for both?

huracan and R8 have different wheelbase and R8 is a bit taller than huracan, so they are not made by the basic platform... they have a lot of common parts like engine and general drivetrain but space frame chassis of two cars is different.