The Circuits - Discussion on their safety or otherwise!

[MGDavid]

just as on the road, I don't believe circuits are inherently safe or dangerous, those attributes lie entirely with the driver. When people say Historic racing should be a non-contact sport, I think that applies to the barriers as much as other cars. For me the trick is exercising self-control and driving (just) within yourself - while still thoroughly enjoying it of course. BTW my favourite circuit is the Nordschleife...

[PTRACER]

Tarmac is best for everyone and their wallets, but does anyone really want to race on a circuit that's basically a big rectangle of tarmac with some white lines painted on it?

[FISCracer]

I'm not sure I think there is really such a thing as a dangerous circuit. I thought the whole point of what we do is to push ourselves close to the edge without going over it. Going down through Pflantzgarten at 125mph on 155 road tyres in an open car is pretty hairy but isn't that the point? That's why we love the Nordschliefe - it sorts out the men from the boys.

Personally I think Spa has been made much too easy as a result of tarmac rather than gravel at Blanchimont, Le Radillion and Pouhon. You can now make a serious error and get way with it, rather than have to place the car precisely. Some now take the $£"! by using the outside of the circuit to nick time where they would previously have been in the gravel/barriers/rolled.

I'm not saying we should make the sport overtly dangerous but most accidents are as a result of driver error. I smile when people blame conditions or little run off when they have a bang, maybe they can't admit to the fact they lost control.

If I wanted risk free I'd drive a simulator.

[delta]

Originally Posted by jhh911

All uk circuits are massively safer than when I raced on them back in the seventies with acres of run of area and gravel traps replacing walls made of railway sleepers,however please dont ask for any more chicanes.Many of the nice fast circuits such as Combe ,Oulton, Snetterton ,have already be spoiled by these shunt creatars.It would be a great shame to see extra ones added to slow cars before the wonderfull fast corners at places like Mallory,Truxton,Croft,Brands GP. We all have a choice as to how hard we push and where.If the circuits are without challenge whats the point?

Been reading the post on here with interest and have refrained from voicing my opinion as don't want to upset any of you. Your post jhh is spot on well said..One thing i would like to say is that many new drivers come along with big wallets and after a couple of seasons racing start driving powerful race cars such as " Dereck Bell ". but do not have the ability skill or experience to control quick racing cars.

[paddy]

I've said on a similar thread that i've been spectating at Mallory since the seventies and in my view the circuit is way safer than it was, but I'm afraid that driving standards seem worse. People seem to believe that they are immune to injury. I can recall very few big offs during the seventies, but now you can more or less guarantee one or two a meeting. Drivers in all categories happily weave on the straights and don't give room in corners. It's as if they have all been taught by BTCC drivers! Go on youtube and watch Villeneuve v Arnoux at Dijon and how they both held their line going into the first corner. No blocking from the leading car and then giving each other room to race. You won't see anything like that in any category now and don't get me started on discipline regarding flag signals!

[The Flagman]

Interesting discussion. Our brains do strange things to us but all the behaviours and perceptions are trained based upon experience. As has been mentioned earlier, one persons favourite circuit can be another's horror story.

Street circuits appear amongst people's favourites. Barriers close by creating an enhanced challenge - miss the other racers and the surroundings. Often slower speeds but the perception is that the world flashes by faster. Its the reverse of the motorway fog syndrome where you quickly become disorientated because of the lack of visual clues. Confined tracks send the brain into sensory overload - either pleasurable or frightening both of which give the emotional rush we crave. Hillclimbers must know all about this as their discipline means it all happens in a very compressed time frame.

Many current circuits have been sanitised to the point we no longer get the sensory thrill from the surroundings. Now here's a leap of psychology - do racers now race closer together to obtain the same thrill but without the margins of safety between cars? Do closeness, closing speeds and contact replace the other forms of brain input?

Heres the next thought. No risk means no challenge. On trials if all cars can go clean through a section the best drivers have achieved nothing over their competitors - and there is no result. If we eliminate risk we take away the gladitorial aspect of racing and theres no point. Did the drivers of yesteryear get a greater sense of achievement from the fact they survived when fellows fell by the wayside?

Perversely we on the banks feel the same thing. Cars in the distance mean no thrill. Cars in the distance mean the flag communications are wasted. Cars in the distance mean its too hazardous to risk tackling an incident on a live track as we always used to. Birmingham was the ultimate Marshal experience. Hillclimbs, karting and rallies often offer more because of the proximity. Is it because marshal folk don't get the thrill on circuits it becomes boring and they don't come back? Does the same go for spectators?

By all means rearrange those places where there are frequent incidents. Remove obvious hazards. All that happens is that the site of the incidents shifts to another piece of track!

In the current climate it would take a brave circuit owner to start moving the banks back towards the tarmac. Thank heavens for Monaco, Pau, Phoenix Park, Goodwood, Copenhagen GP, Angouleme, The Isle of Man and all hillclimb venues.

[rogerwills]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kl2tIFxSEGA

Yes, a great clip. But they did bang wheels about 6 times on that last lap so hardly the best example......

[delta]

Nice one Roger have not seen that race for sometime.I think Dijon should be on your list Flagman. I agree with your other choices especially Pau and Aunguelem.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by terence bower

I dont really think it's bravado as such,more like when getting a 'tricky' circuit right,there is more pleasure from it.

Agreed, but "tricky" needn't be "unsafe". Haven't raced at Mallory for years - circumstance not principle - but I had a large thwack there in a Sports 2000 that I thought was unnecessary.

MGDavid & I were musing over a bottle of wine that we'd never really noticed the barriers at the Nordschleife were that close to the road......it's what comes of driving a low-powered car I suppose. And being brought up on hillclimbing.

Spa? Haven't been there since Pouhon was tarmaced, but I reckon I'd run out of petrol before I hit anything and I did feel a teeny bit let down by Eau Rouge. Not as scary as I'd been led to believe, even on 155 tyres

[terence]

Quite right Max,re the Ring,in most places the Armco is only about 1 metre from the trackside,that must be close enough for any wine drinker to notice.?..Had this conversation with Simon 'H' today at Donington,some very interesting points were raised,I'll not bother getting into trouble repeating the though. Eau Rouge isn't the problem,I think Pouhon is the greater challenge,you need to get that one right for that elusive 'quick lap'.
We ALL know of the possible risk,is it a risk that people are comfortable with? its a personal choice as to whether or not one takes the risk/challenge.If it presents too much of a challenge to accept the risk,is it really a pursuit those who find the risk too great to take,perhaps they should be looking elsewhere for their excitment?

[simon drabble]

I think it is not just a risk of personal injury but that of damage to car and wallet. I would suggest that your car is more likely to be dinked at Mallory than at Silverstone. As someone who races on a tight budget I take this into consideration.... Clearly I am in a minority!

[terence]

One other point to be raised is the insistance of BTCC ,F1,and most Formular drivers of regularly going 'four off'.Classic example was seen at turn one Nurburgring,lots of drivers in the GP were going over the white line to the left in order to 're-shape' the corner.Knockhill BTCC up the hill and over the crest is a favorite four off over to the right,did anyone get a warning about their driving standards?,highly unlikely.We all use a little of the kerbing on the sharper corners,this now 'acceptable' because of the flat nature of the kerbing,the point being that the kerbing is/should be regarded the same as the white line either side of all circuits should really be regarded as a 'wall'.

[jamesholland]

Driving a 500cc F3 I avoid kerbing like the plague

[simon drabble]

I have to say I do as well - I think its something heavier cars can get advantage from rather than damage!

[Al Weyman]

No blocking from the leading car and then giving each other room to race. You won't see anything like that in any category now and don't get me started on discipline regarding flag signals!

Shame you were not watching the CTCRC Group 1 race at Brands at the weekend then as at one stage two drivers did virtually four laps side by side both not giving an inch until one lost control at Clearways.

There is no reason why this cannot happen today just forget the ruddy BTCC. I noticed a poster in Hailwoods at Brands yesterday showing two BTCC cars rubbing body work and nerfing with the logo 'Sparks will fly', what a stupid message to send out to young drivers, it should be stopped now. At the same meeting at the relatively safe Brands there could have been a fatality but fortunately both guys walked away with bruising and wrecked cars but this was completely down one or other (or both in fairness) of the drivers just not doing what they should on the race track nothing to do with the safety or otherwise of the circuit and while I am at it just why are drivers allowed to blatantly kerb hop these days without penalty?

I have to say I do as well - I think its something heavier cars can get advantage from rather than damage!

I tell you what Simon and I thought this at the time and I do not want anyones death on my concience if I had been the car in the above event hitting the first car in the drivers door at probably 60 to 80mph such is the weight and strength of my old car I doubt the guy would have survived. We all need to be aware out there and do what the marshals tell us, they invariably know best.

[John Turner]

Well, we are now talking about risky driving rather than risky circuits, and maybe this is the real issue. Drivers really ought to be adapting to the particular challenges of the circuit they are on, and drive accordingly. Yes, I know, easy for me to say, but it doesn't make that view wrong though.

[terence]

I think in most case's John,the risky drivers create their own 'risky' circuits!

[Al Weyman]

Personally I have wrecked cars at Lydden and Oulton infact at Oulton Old Hall it was getting on to previously mentioned ice like wet grass that caused me to loose it straight into the tyre barriers. I have also been a guest of the Silverstone pitwall another circuit that is notoriously tricky when wet. I would'nt go to Lydden for years then did this year and treated it with respect especially Paddock Hill bend where I have seen so much carnage although I wrecked my ill handling Monza Spyder V8 at Chessons and yes the circuit has been improved but the dangers are still there like everywhere and to my surprise I really enjoyed driving it. My mate smashed his camaro up on the exit of Gerrards of all places which when you look at it, its an odd place to go off and yet there is a Mustang on youTube doing the same thing and that put me off Mallory a bit so I guess it can all be in the mind as well how safe or dangerous a particular circuit is. I do agree the older you get the more respect and hence slower you also get.

[terence]

There will always be the odd occaision when we get 'caught out' but that is down to us,not a reflection of the particular circuit.
I think that another factor regarding driving standards could well be down to individual 'instructors'.I had a day with a very good friend who wanted to be shown how to drive on Histo's.He had previously been out with another 'instructor' who had actually told him to 'take out the post's on the corners so you can use more of the grass'.Two weeks later said instructor got excluded from an event for doing just that!

[SZRacer]

At the risk of going off-topic slightly (in best Ronnie Corbett fashion), another oft-overlooked factor in the safety of circuits is the quality of the boys in Orange, both in flag-waving and 'clearance' of obstructions. Luckily in the UK, we are, in general, blessed with a highly-professional marshalling structure, but I have on occasion at (unnamed for now) circuits encountered very late flagging of obstacles on the track, coupled with downright dangerous recovery (nobody who has raced at Chimay can forget the sight of coming round a blind bend to see the recovery truck nearly blocking the track DURING the race!).

My favourite marshalling experience was at Imola, when, having spun off the track in atrocious conditions at a 'remote' marshalling post (and being unable to restart my flooded engine), I was patted on the back by the chrome-domed marshal and, (I kid you not!) offered 'un bicchiere di vino rosso'. Hope I don't lose my licence if I admit that, under the circumstances, I accepted!

[L-G Sjöberg]

[My favourite marshalling experience was at Imola, when, having spun off the track in atrocious conditions at a 'remote' marshalling post (and being unable to restart my flooded engine), I was patted on the back by the chrome-domed marshal and, (I kid you not!) offered 'un bicchiere di vino rosso'. Hope I don't lose my licence if I admit that, under the circumstances, I accepted! [/QUOTE]

You don´t have to go to Italy for that! At last year´s Nürburgring Eifelrennen, I limped to a marshalling post with a broken stub shaft and was subsequently offered a cup of coffee by marshals together with the comment: "Most drivers prefer to break down by us, since our coffee is known at Lion´s Milk. How about some Amaretto?"

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I tell you what Simon and I thought this at the time and I do not want anyones death on my concience if I had been the car in the above event hitting the first car in the drivers door at probably 60 to 80mph such is the weight and strength of my old car I doubt the guy would have survived. We all need to be aware out there and do what the marshals tell us, they invariably know best.

I actually withdrew from the Sports Vs Saloon Challenge race about half way through at the Silverstone CSCC meeting a few weeks ago for a similar reason - the weather was atrocious and the spray meant that I couldn't even see the rain/ fog lights of the cars in front let alone the marshalls flags or the cars themselves, particularly coming down the back straight towards the lefthander and right hand hairpin before Woodcote. There were 4 Locaterfields dicing in front of me (I could see them on the main straight and through Copse but not down the back straight) and I decided that if one of them had spun, or I had braked late and skidded I would probably have ploughed through them because I would not have known they were there, causing untold damage - I'd probably have been Ok in my saloon but the Locaterfield would have sufferred badly.

To be honest I think that the CoC should have stopped the race. Silverstone is a very safe circuit but you need to factor in weather conditions and relevant risk to competitors. Sometimes competitors need to be saved from themselves. If I couldn't see the Locaterfields or the Marshals flags from in the car I doubt the marshals could see us clearly.

[Al Weyman]

Silverstone IMHO is atrocious in the wet, not only is it very very slipery it also does not seem to drain very well for some reason and is the only track I have ever pulled up on not hardly being able to see the end of my bonnet at one stage.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by terence bower

One other point to be raised is the insistance of BTCC ,F1,and most Formular drivers of regularly going 'four off'.Classic example was seen at turn one Nurburgring,lots of drivers in the GP were going over the white line to the left in order to 're-shape' the corner.Knockhill BTCC up the hill and over the crest is a favorite four off over to the right,did anyone get a warning about their driving standards?,highly unlikely.We all use a little of the kerbing on the sharper corners,this now 'acceptable' because of the flat nature of the kerbing,the point being that the kerbing is/should be regarded the same as the white line either side of all circuits should really be regarded as a 'wall'.

I was "observing" at Copse, for the 750MC meeting on Sunday, and a certain driver had "all four off" 11 times! 6 times in practise/qualifying, 5 times during the race. However, I'd much rather see tarmac run off areas rather than gravel traps, as it gives you a margin for error or, as was the case on Sunday, a chance to avoid other people spinning. IMO the gravel trap at Paddock Hill bend has caused far too much carnage as it is too close to the circuit.

[terence]

I would hope that driver was reported! Once upon a time it used to be 'cross over the outer kerbing twice at Paddock and you could expect a chat with the CoC'.The best thing about gravel traps is there is more of an incentive to just use the available tarmac.I really do not see as there could be any excuse for your man running wide at Copse,either the car needed looking at or his driving did.