[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Deleted]

As I see it, this is 100% McLaren lobbying for this. I mean sure the others would go along with it too as Toyota here proves, but the Zak Brown department seems to be the real driving force. For the past 5-7? years they've been touting it to be the REQUIREMENT for Le Mans return in the top class, as in the only solution. And now that they are publicly saying they would love to be back, and there aren't anyone campaigning against it, now ACO suddenly is considering the change out of blue. Just like the EVO was considered 10 years ago when General Motors wanted it for Corvette. The difference then was that Audi and Pug and others weren't really in favor of it and the whole thing collapsed to pieces, while now you only really have Toyota left and they'd be perfectly willing to go for it if it meant others joined.

I have nothing against GT1 styled prototypes again, HOWEVER it would be absolute garbage if it'd implement balance of performance nonsense in it.

Furthermore you'd once again split LMP1 into two, as surely privateers would still carry on with conventional prototype design... I guess you could rename the factory-intended class as LMGTP and keep LMP1 as it is, but ehh

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Edit: and Chiana is spot on - there's no requirement to run a hybrid as a manufacturer in LMP1 for 2018.

Sigh it's just been revised again...

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/w...tle-in-201819/

The FIA and ACO, meanwhile, have also clarified that OEMs will not be allowed to enter a complete car built to LMP1 non-hybrid regulations, although can supply engines to teams, as is the case today. Additionally, the branding of a complete LMP1 non-hybrid will be permitted, as long as the chassis and engine is produced by a “private race car manufacturer” and be in compliance with the homologation for private teams.

[chernaudi]

The ACO should just drop the requirement and get on with it.

[carbsmith]

That's not really a problem, I can't see any manufacturer designing their own chassis in the lifetime of the current regulations anyways.

For what it's worth aero matching isn't actually BoP. It's just removing aero from the performance equation entirely and putting it all on mechanicals, a position some people would be in favour of for promoting drivetrain technology instead of esoteric wind tunnel developments. Not fond personally though, aerodynamics are still a big part of efficiency after all.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

You keep talking about "made out to be". I'm not talking about what S365 says - I'm talking about actual manufacturers represented. DPi is the most popular right now.

Except it's not. It's just a class that happened to be the only suitable place for a few specific manufacturers - that's not popularity, that's convenience.

And by your measure, LMP1 is only looking to be one manufacturer down compared to IMSA in 2018(Toyota, Ginetta, ByKolles). So yes, the popularity of DPi is being overstated even by you. (though the death of the ByKolles is looking possible at this point, for now it should be assumed they're joining since nothing's confirmed)

When you refer to DPi as being popular, you imply that it has some massive level of interest that makes it inherently superior to other classes. This is simply not the case.

Lowest is 2. It's now at 2. That's a record.

No, a RECORD would be if there were FEWER manufacturers than they've ever had before.

GT3 is popular because it's a profit centre. Cars can be sold for a profit to customer and private entries. Series and classes don't become popular because engineers like a challenge.

Yes, the class is popular because they can sell cars to make a lot of money, but the profits are nothing like you probably think - too much money is spent on developing those cars.

All those development costs despite the class being built entirely around BoP. Why is that? It's because the class still has room to do so. If it was all about profits, GT3 cars would still be little different than when the class first started.

Engineers like a challenge. GT3 provides that challenge while also being

If we're going the BoP route (which I'd rather not have), I see no valid reason to not use DPi. If we're not going the BoP route, then DPi doesn't really work.

If doesn't matter if there's BoP or not. If it's not what the manufacturers want, there is ZERO point in using the class for LMP1. IF the manufacturers aren't interested in DPi, then using DPi for LMP1 will be little better than continuing LMP1-H.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

No, a RECORD would be if there were FEWER manufacturers than they've ever had before.

No, you would in fact be wrong. If you would like to be pedantic the correct turn of phrase would be they have tied their record low. But they are in fact at their record low level, a record can be ESTABLISHED only once but any time to you return to that point you would be at your record lows.

[Akrapovic]

When i refer to DPi as popular, I imply that it has the most manufacturer entries. Which it does. I suppose if we redefine the word popular (we're already redefining record, why stop there?) then we can change that. But I'm fine with the current definitions. DPi has gone from nothing to 4 manufacturers in little over a year. That's popular. No amount of arguing will change that.

All this discussion on "this is what the manufacturers ACTUALLY want", and yet here we are with 1, almost 0 in LMP1, because we kept getting told "this is what the manufacturers actually want".

The discussion on GT3 stuff is a bit....crazy, honestly. It's a customer based program, with servicing and support and marketing. It's quite obvious why it's popular and it has a lot to do with the 200 Audi R8s sold, serviced and supported around the world more than the engineering challenge. Business doesn't run on what an engineer thinks would be a fun maths project to run, as much as we'd all like it to.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The discussion on GT3 stuff is a bit....crazy, honestly. It's a customer based program, with servicing and support and marketing. It's quite obvious why it's popular and it has a lot to do with the 200 Audi R8s sold, serviced and supported around the world more than the engineering challenge. Business doesn't run on what an engineer thinks would be a fun maths project to run, as much as we'd all like it to.

If anything Porsche has shown that to be the best way to make money in racing for YEARS and it seems like their model isn't slowing anytime soon. Audi just listened and learned from their stablemates.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

When i refer to DPi as popular, I imply that it has the most manufacturer entries. Which it does. I suppose if we redefine the word popular (we're already redefining record, why stop there?) then we can change that. But I'm fine with the current definitions. DPi has gone from nothing to 4 manufacturers in little over a year. That's popular. No amount of arguing will change that.

All this discussion on "this is what the manufacturers ACTUALLY want", and yet here we are with 1, almost 0 in LMP1, because we kept getting told "this is what the manufacturers actually want".

But again they're not really manufacturer entries, but OEM badge engineering and minimal support. Anyone can gain "manufacturers" if you put the fence as low as possible. Hell, with this "popular logic" we could argue that Grand-Am was most of the time more popular than ALMS and others series with the manufacturers, because you had GM and Ford and BMW etc rebranding cars other people made for their engines. And the series encouraged it

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

No, you would in fact be wrong. If you would like to be pedantic the correct turn of phrase would be they have tied their record low. But they are in fact at their record low level, a record can be ESTABLISHED only once but any time to you return to that point you would be at your record lows.

Matching the record does not make it "the record" the way Akrapovic states it. His wording implied it was either setting the record or that it the series is just about dead(the latter point was also directly inferred) as a direct result of tying the record. Neither is accurate. Pedantic? Sure. But what a comment implies is very important.

Case in point, his claim that DTM is at death's door because of this is undone by the mere fact that two manufacturers is what they had when they relaunched the series - and they certainly weren't at death's door then, or after Opel left them with two manufacturers a second time.

Sure there are other questions hovering around, but DTM still has two manufacturers ready and willing to hop in if they make one specific change(three if they make a second change) to the regulations. DTM really can't be said to be at death's door under the current circumstances.

But that's enough of a divergence, I think - to be talking about DTM outside of Class One's relevance to new LMP1 rules is a bit off-topic.

[AoB Special Stage]

Speaking of Class One, the increasing buzz surrounding the LMP-GT1 proposal could be a lead into LMP1 evolving into a Class One variant. I'd vastly prefer that to 'manufacturer bodywork' that'll last until Honda says 'it IS a Honda, regardless of what it looks like' and sticks a giant front wing on it again.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage

Speaking of Class One, the increasing buzz surrounding the LMP-GT1 proposal could be a lead into LMP1 evolving into a Class One variant.

That's pretty much what the rumor that's sparked all recent mention of Class One was claiming.

[Sodemo]

I could get behind the idea of road car manufacturer bodywork. I would hope that it could be carbon fibre though, or at least a portion of it could be. I would also hope that the road car bodywork could be widened slightly at the arches (I would presume this would be the case due to the size of race tyres). I would like to see something like GTE but with much more power and more aero - a big rear end mounted rear extended wing and make them about 800-900kg.

I guess we need to establish how much of the road car will be on the race car, whether it will just be a silhouette or will it actually have road car origins?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I could get behind the idea of road car manufacturer bodywork. I would hope that it could be carbon fibre though, or at least a portion of it could be.

It will be. This isn't Grand-Am, it's the ACO in concert with the manufacturers and an IMSA that is run by people who understand the value of such things in prototypes. They're not going to let LMP2 be higher-tech and safer than LMP1. The cars aren't going to be modified road cars after all - they'll be purpose built racecars.

[August]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

GT3 is popular because it's a profit centre. Cars can be sold for a profit to customer and private entries. Series and classes don't become popular because engineers like a challenge.

That's what I think LMP1 would also need. At the moment, OEMs (OK, only one OEM next year) design and build some fine race cars, though selling them to customer teams doesn't really come into question because of the factory support those hybrid cars need.

LMP1 should have rules that would make customer cars an option again. Have OEMs building cars that customer teams car buy and run. OEMs could still run their factory teams. That way private teams could get some competitive cars, an LMP1 program would make more sense in financial terms for OEMs, and the class would have more cars.

[chernaudi]

Per SC365, the ACO are considering dumping their current pit stop format in favor of adopting IMSA regs or maybe old ALMS regs.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by August

That's what I think LMP1 would also need. At the moment, OEMs (OK, only one OEM next year) design and build some fine race cars, though selling them to customer teams doesn't really come into question because of the factory support those hybrid cars need.

LMP1 should have rules that would make customer cars an option again. Have OEMs building cars that customer teams car buy and run. OEMs could still run their factory teams. That way private teams could get some competitive cars, an LMP1 program would make more sense in financial terms for OEMs, and the class would have more cars.

Probably would need more then one series to run them in to be financially viable, but otherwise that seems like a solid proposal.

[Sodemo]

Would indie teams be producing a LMP1 racer with road car origins / looks? If so what would the motivation be? Perhaps they would, just thinking out loud.

[Deleted]

I guess Glickenhaus could be interested

[YZFrider]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I guess Glickenhaus could be interested

That was my guess too. Reports over the years confirmed interest for entering LMP1...Heck and if future regs are aligned with road car styling, well then... There was also reported from interest from Subaru. Both fit the definition of a manufacturer never having raced Le Mans

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I guess Glickenhaus could be interested

Glickenhaus will be launching a new model, the SCG 004 in 2019 and there will be a GTE / GTLM and a GT3 of this car.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...s-photos-info/

http://www.motortrend.com/news/meet-...llion-scg-003/

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Glickenhaus will be launching a new model, the SCG 004 in 2019 and there will be a GTE / GTLM and a GT3 of this car.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...s-photos-info/

http://www.motortrend.com/news/meet-...llion-scg-003/

Ohh that's somewhat disappointing but good to see them still in business, and seemingly qualifying as low-volume manufacturer

[hondafan37]

Vasselon: “Positive Momentum” for GT-Styled LMP1 Proposal.
The FIA and ACO are due to release guidelines for the proposed 2020/21 rules next month, with a recent proposal for production-car inspired LMP1 cars appearing to be the favored option among manufacturers, including Toyota.
The Japanese manufacturer has been among the half-dozen automakers that have been involved in recent meetings, included representatives from McLaren and Ford.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/v...-lmp1-concept/

[Rcz]

Is it time to bring out those mothballed Corvette Dp bodies?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Is it time to bring out those mothballed Corvette Dp bodies?

No. They wouldn't be eligible and they're too slow. Cadillac have a car anyway they can use in the Dallara if they are allowed. I think the rules will be brand new and everyone will have to make or style a new car.