ferrari WILL cheat next year

[RWC]

What a stupid rule the fia imposed upon us!!
So team orders are banned?Bull****!!!

We KNOW ferrari will be breaking this rule next year-who do they take us for??

[f1grandprixshop]

Originally posted by RWC
What a stupid rule the fia imposed upon us!!
So team orders are banned?Bull****!!!

We KNOW ferrari will be breaking this rule next year-who do they take us for??

[Armco Bender]

Whats wrong with team orders?Schuey will win,RB will be number 2.Thats the way it is.RB aint complaining,he's well paid to be number 2.Ferrari want to win the CC and they want MS to win the WDC again.RB is there to cover his butt.If you expect they want it any other way,you haven't been watching F1 very long.Its a team game just like soccer,you don't see the whole soccer team upfront trying to score the goals,someones gotta be at the back defending.

[twig]

yes, agreeing the it is a part of Ruben's contract to be the number two, otherwise he would not be in Ferrari, plus, how are they going to figure it out or not?! I assume they can now hear anything and everything by means of team radio.

If they can actually hear whatever the team says over the radio, the team would have already have thought up a plan on the race anyway, so again, how can they police that!?

Tom.

[Wrex]

RWC, you've got some issues man.

What would actually have made you happy? The FIA saying team orders ok? Give me a break. This is just whining for the sake of whining.

Will Williams cheat this year? Will McLaren cheat this year? bla bla bla.

Final point, does anyone here seriously think Rubins would beat Michael anyway?

*Nurse! We need more medication over here*

[Armco Bender]

They've been at it for years too.Lauda and Regazonni were a great double act '74-76.Clay was definitely No 2 though.

[Armco Bender]

These guys were at it too.Though I always suspected the No2 driver was the faster of the two.But he always followed Mario home just like a good No2 should.

[Glen]

With you Wrex. Some people will just have to face up to the fact that Ferrari are on top right now because they deserve to be. They have worked harder, have more pure engineering ideas and standards, they have fantastic race day operations (nevermind what you think of the team orders element) and they have the very best driver.

As you say Wrex, what exactly would make some people happy? The outcome of both championships, as it turned out, was not affected by team orders. Now it's banned anyway - you can be sure that all of the other teams and the FIA have got far, far better ways of determining whether this rule has been breached than anyone on here could dream up.

And, as has also been said, Schumacher's going to win again anyway. Rubens would never be able to beat Michael over an entire season - Michael is a much more complete driver with a whole level of driving skill and racecraft at his disposal that Rubens could never have access to.

[AllonFS]

Originally posted by Wrex
Final point, does anyone here seriously think Rubins would beat Michael anyway?

Nope, although Austria did show that he can occasionally better Schumacher over an entire weekend. (Well the first 99% anyway )

Originally posted by Glen
Michael is a much more complete driver with a whole level of driving skill and racecraft at his disposal,

I agree entirely, but why then were team orders necessary this year? Surely if they had been allowed to race the results would have been nearly identical, Schumacher racing off in to the distance, Rubens a way back, the rest a lot further back. And it's not as if reliability was a problem for Ferrari.

[Toth]

Just to make sure. Anything can happen. It usually doesn't with a Ferrari that's so excellent, but it can. The sooner you've got the title, the sooner you've really got it.

[christo61]

I cant belive this new points system. Only 2 points between winning & second? The whole World is changing! I just cant take it any more!!!

[Glen]

I can't believe I hadn't thought of that until now - what would be the point in switching 1 & 2 (team orders) when there's only two points in it? Mind you, they switched for the same points difference in 2001.

[Liz]

The point is that this is sold as a "race" and not as a "Ferrari Demonstration Run."

Or as JPM is fond of asking (and never getting an answer either): What is Michael afraid of? If he's really sure he can always beat Rubens, why does he have a clause in his contract that means he doesn't even have to try?

The fact that no one has denied that the clause is there, including Rubens, that's how I knwo it's there. Rubens would deny that such a humiliating clause existed if it did not.

[Speed]

Liz, don't waste your time...

Anyway, I agree with you.

[Inigo Montoya]

Oh my gosh... again? For the love of god, do we really need to go over this AGAIN?

[Red]

Originally posted by Liz
The point is that this is sold as a "race" and not as a "Ferrari Demonstration Run."

Yes, it is sold as a race. The Ferrari demonstration comes as a bonus.

PS: I'm not sure if Pablo is asking what is Michael afraid of, but if you don't get an answer you shouldn't be surprised. He is not, so asking *why* is ridiculous.

PPS: but why then were team orders necessary this year? (and before, and in the future) Just ask Pablo and Little bro. Or, even better, ask Frank.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Liz
The point is that this is sold as a "race" and not as a "Ferrari Demonstration Run."

Or as JPM is fond of asking (and never getting an answer either): What is Michael afraid of? If he's really sure he can always beat Rubens, why does he have a clause in his contract that means he doesn't even have to try?

The fact that no one has denied that the clause is there, including Rubens, that's how I knwo it's there. Rubens would deny that such a humiliating clause existed if it did not.

Liz, you must tell me where I can purchase that sought of logic?

[f1grandprixshop]

Originally posted by Liz
If he's really sure he can always beat Rubens, why does he have a clause in his contract that means he doesn't even have to try?

i like to see this contract 1st please, before i say something about this.

[Glen]

Contract my a*se. This idea must hold the record for the most punted-around without a shred of evidence. Both drivers will be contracually obliged to act in the best interests of the team, so what would be the point of having this infamous, dreamed-up other clause?

[drexel]

Originally posted by AllonFS
Nope, although Austria did show that he can occasionally better Schumacher over an entire weekend. (Well the first 99% anyway )

In a way... but not a 'complete domination'. Schumacher still had the better race pace that day...as he has had in every single race they have had together in three years. The only exceptions(besides outside factors) being when they were on different pitstop strategies, and then you can't really tell.eg Monza, Interlagos 02

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by AllonFS
Nope, although Austria did show that he can occasionally better Schumacher over an entire weekend. (Well the first 99% anyway )

Were they even racing each other in that race? I don't think they were. Flame me if you like, I'm just saying what I think, and I think that Rubens and Michael weren't racing each other in Austria. We saw that they were crusing in Hungary, so what makes you think they were racing each other in Austria?

Ah well, at least we won't see the likes of the last lap switch we saw there again.

[JR27]

Armco Bender

I agree that "team orders" have been a staple of f1 racing...you gave 2 examples...you were correct in Mario/Ronnie..... but not in your Niki/Clay scenerio..there were no team orders with Niki/Clay. Niki was already faster than Clay when they were teammates at BRM in 1973. When the 2 went to the Scuderia in '74, Niki very quickly took over the testing and development of the 312B...Clay's forte was never "testing"....Niki had 9 poles in '74 compared to Clay's 1. Niki learned a very valuable lesson in 1974..he had the speed to easily have won the WDC..but first he had to be taught this.."to finish first..first you have to finish"...he was a very quick learner....

Another case of "team orders" would be the Jones/Reutemann first year with Williams....Lole refused to follow Frank & Patrick's orders to move over for Alan early in their 2 season as teammates.

take care

Murph

[JR27]

"The fact that no one has denied that the clause is there, including Rubens, that's how I know it's there."

my translation..."But, I am Liz!"

love & kisses

Murph

[Liz]

Hey it worked for Senna!

I agree, it's a logical fallacy. Post Hoc I think it's called. But I still think that clause is there.

[Gt_R]

Quote Liz:"The fact that no one has denied that the clause is there, including Rubens, that's how I know it's there."

I'm pretty sure i've read from RB earlier this year (or earlier in his career at Ferrari) that there is NO absolute clause in his contract that says he is a no.2 to Michael Schumacher. But the team and him had hinted that in the contract there is an agreement that BOTH drivers are required to follow TEAM DECISIONS to the best interest of the team.

Anyway, Bernie had admitted that the new "rule" is very difficult to police, FIA had granted that this new "rule" is not exactly a definite regulation. The race stewards are given the power to drag any team suspected of implementing team orders to face investigations and punishments in needed. The new "rule" is a deterrence to get rid of future "Austrias"... so we can rest in mind that such blatant last lap exchanges would extinct.

But team orders would still live...just in a more discreet manner. And if you think it only lives in the red camp, you're rather sad.