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Old 20 Jun 2018, 01:11 (Ref:3831996)   #51
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
The onus is on STR/Honda to prove themselves, if they are indeed on the upswing.
I am generally at a loss as to how to respond. There is no need to pound my head against the wall on this. But before I move along I will post just one example of articles that came out after the Canadian upgrade.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...an-gp-1045560/

I think the only way to justify the stance the Honda is not making progress is to call articles such as the above as outright lies and that improved reliability is down to pure luck.

Lastly, I will say... avoid conflating STR/Honda with... Honda as a F1 supplier. It is like measuring Renault by looking at McLaren, or Mercedes by looking at Williams. Nothing against STR, but teams don’t always live up to the capability of the power unit.

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 06:19 (Ref:3832021)   #52
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
Pretty much every piece of data you can find?


The onus is on you to suggest evidence that they actually are 'on the upswing'. We've heard all this before.

But Red Bull can compare the data of both the Renault and Honda engines(since they own Toro Rosso) and gone with Honda.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:11 (Ref:3832033)   #53
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I am generally at a loss as to how to respond. There is no need to pound my head against the wall on this. But before I move along I will post just one example of articles that came out after the Canadian upgrade.
Why do you think the opinion of a driver of the very team we're talking about is in any way relevant here? This is all PR speak, I am at a loss why someone would fall for that so blatantly.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:12 (Ref:3832034)   #54
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What are you reading? Every major F1 related publication, site, author has a similar stance regarding the upgraded Honda plant at Canada. It was an improvement and MILES beyond the pathetic "upgrade" that Renault rolled out.

And sorry but you've made the claim of all that data, it's YOUR job to demonstrate and back up why you disagree with most in the business, not the poster you don't agree with. And yes, it might get me points but being a tempermental child who doesn't like being told you're in fact wrong, which in most posts you factually are, doesn't mean you get to pretend we're here to provide you with cited references when you don't agree. You have not once provided facts, opinion or even a hint of information to back up your claims, so why exactly is it another job to provide you with info? It's called being informed and reading for yourself
Honda and its acolytes claim a big improvement. Prove it. It's really that simple, trying to switch the burder of proof will not work here.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:12 (Ref:3832035)   #55
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But Red Bull can compare the data of both the Renault and Honda engines(since they own Toro Rosso) and gone with Honda.
Red Bull's Honda engine decision 'clear cut'
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 08:30 (Ref:3832042)   #56
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Replace the word 'technical' with 'financial' in that article and we might get the real story on why Red Bull switched.

Mateschitz has been saying for the couple of years now that F1 was costing him too much for the returns. Now he gets free engines and is also being paid to have the Honda logo on all four of his cars. As a business man, he would be stupid to knock that sort of deal back.



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Old 20 Jun 2018, 11:15 (Ref:3832071)   #57
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I give up. I am wrong. The teams and drivers lie about everything. We can’t trust anyone or anything. Also, RBR only looks at financial data when making decisions, so we can expect a quick exit of DR and MV any day now to make way for pay drivers who bring money in. New rumor... Stroll to RBR?

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 12:57 (Ref:3832089)   #58
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Hey Richard, it is quite clear, isn't it: McLaren was not succesful with Honda and they had "the best chassis". No way they can be wrong about that because they are a top team, right. Probably Williams has an even better chassis it is just the engine that sucks. After all, Williams is a (former) top team as well.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 13:04 (Ref:3832090)   #59
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
Honda and its acolytes claim a big improvement. Prove it. It's really that simple, trying to switch the burder of proof will not work here.
Actually most of what I read doubted the efficacy of the upgrade until during the race. And they could actually point out sectors where in comparison to the times set pre and post engine swap there was definitive proof Gasly had better engine performance and power usage.

And asking you to demonstrate where your claims come from isn't switching burden of proof. As point of fact, YOU made the claims the improvement was BS without any evidence. As you made the claims of a negative prior without any supporting evidence, you have the burden of proof just because you think we have to do your work for you doesn't make you right. You have not provided any evidence, lap times, fuel eficiency, etc to back up your claims. Sorry but that's not a discussion, that's an I'm right you're wrong child's argument.

FYI, I have read articles on Autosport, F1Fanatic and others all demonstrating the improvements to the engine without being 'acolytes' as you claim. It's obvious you are just out to be argumentative for the purposes of thinking that's the 'smart' challenge but to me it shows your childish and think the internet is for trolling and well honestly that's what ruins the vast majority of it.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 13:27 (Ref:3832092)   #60
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Originally Posted by F1Guy View Post
Replace the word 'technical' with 'financial' in that article and we might get the real story on why Red Bull switched.

Mateschitz has been saying for the couple of years now that F1 was costing him too much for the returns. Now he gets free engines and is also being paid to have the Honda logo on all four of his cars. As a business man, he would be stupid to knock that sort of deal back.
As a business man, he would be stupid to run two F1 teams for financial purposes.

His comments about the return he was getting for the expense was not to try and get a better financial deal from their PU provider, but to get a better performance.

RBR cost the company roughly $135million in 2011 - saving about $8-20million on PUs hardly makes a dent on the running costs....
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 13:54 (Ref:3832098)   #61
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Mateschitz has been saying for the couple of years now that F1 was costing him too much for the returns. Now he gets free engines and is also being paid to have the Honda logo on all four of his cars. As a business man, he would be stupid to knock that sort of deal back.
I was probably a bit overly harsh in my sarcastic post above (i.e. Red Bull moving to pay drivers). I would agree with you that finances were a significant part of the decision to move to Honda. But... Red Bull probably was looking at something along of the lines of "all other things being equal"... So in their mind, they probably expect the 2019 Honda to be (at worst) +/- equal to the Renault, but cheaper. And there is other direct advantages as well (Honda's focus is likely to be on RBR while Renaults is likely to be on Renault). I agree there is some PR speak with the "this is a technical decision only" going on. But it's clearly more than just financial.

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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
Hey Richard, it is quite clear, isn't it: McLaren was not succesful with Honda and they had "the best chassis". No way they can be wrong about that because they are a top team, right. Probably Williams has an even better chassis it is just the engine that sucks. After all, Williams is a (former) top team as well.
It hurts to laugh at this, as I am also a long time Williams fan (they were my first F1 "love".)

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Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Actually most of what I read doubted the efficacy of the upgrade until during the race. And they could actually point out sectors where in comparison to the times set pre and post engine swap there was definitive proof Gasly had better engine performance and power usage.
I agree with your entire post, but just quoted this small part for the sake of brevity. Clearly the data exists. I am quite busy these days and if I had more personal time I would extract it myself. The problem is, I doubt it would convince specific critics. So I am not going to waste my time.

I will say that the best bet for anyone who wants to climb this mountain is seek out those who already apply scientific analysis to F1 races. There are a handful of people on the web who have backgrounds in statistical analysis (I am an educated amateur at this as I know enough "R" based statistical analysis to be dangerous) and apply that to F1 and other types of racing. They may already have published results.

If doing it myself, I would tackle the problem from a few different perspective. The easiest is an analysis of power unit failures from 2017 and 2018. The trick here is to fish out when failures are power unit and when they are the car. Sometimes teams can play games at that. The implication here is that if it shows a statistically significant reduction in failures, that should be case closed to the question of "is Honda improving". This broadly assumes they are not trading performance to get reliability (I don't think they went backwards on power to get reliability)

My other approach would be to try to measure relative performance of STR against other teams as the 2018 season progresses. Canada is only one data point, but I expect it would show a relative improvement. Race analysis can be difficult as extracting race pace is as much art as science because of factors such as knowing if a driver is in a train of cars (my pace is set by whoever is in front of me). Qualifying may expose more as there is less impact of other cars and lastly speed trap data can be an easy way to potentially expose gains in power, but lift and coast strategy and speed trap placement can cloud results.

Overall I am mostly done with this topic of "Is Honda on the upswing or not". What i hope is my last comment is that I think some may confuse "upswing" with me elevating Honda to levels that I would not agree with. I think the power unit pecking order has been Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and then Honda (even then, I am not going to argue Mercedes over Ferrari or vise versa as they are probably very close at this point). With Honda previously being a very very distant fourth. Now I think conversations as to where Honda ranks with respect to Renault are fair game. For me... that is the upswing. They have moved from distant fourth to challenging for third. And given that Renault can be a race winner in the right chassis... who knows what might happen in 2019? Overall, as this engine spec ages, teams are coalescing on solutions and the gaps are disappearing. It was inevitable.

I think the problem has been that some people have been so disgusted with Honda's performance over the past few years that they just can't imagine that Honda might be moving beyond that period of failure. I can't blame the emotional drive for that line of thinking, but I also think it is blinding them to reality. Lastly, I am a Honda fan. So I could be accused of being blind to reality myself. But all you have to do is go back and look at my prior posts about Honda. I have been a tough critic and I have cut them zero slack. I try to call it like it see it even for one of my favorite marques. Both the good and bad. And as I mentioned early in this thread. I think the remaining question for 2018 is reliability for Honda. Time will tell.



Richard

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 14:34 (Ref:3832114)   #62
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At least it has confirmed my thought that Toro Rosso brought in two "test drivers" this year, to try out the Honda unit, knowing they were not really going to get far up the grid with it..
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 14:36 (Ref:3832117)   #63
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At least it has confirmed my thought that Toro Rosso brought in two "test drivers" this year, to try out the Honda unit, knowing they were not really going to get far up the grid with it..
There probably was (rightfully so) low expectations of STR by those pulling the strings. So it didn't make sense to follow the path of a McLaren (hire expensive but proven driver)

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3832123)   #64
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Actually most of what I read doubted the efficacy of the upgrade until during the race. And they could actually point out sectors where in comparison to the times set pre and post engine swap there was definitive proof Gasly had better engine performance and power usage.

And asking you to demonstrate where your claims come from isn't switching burden of proof. As point of fact, YOU made the claims the improvement was BS without any evidence. As you made the claims of a negative prior without any supporting evidence, you have the burden of proof just because you think we have to do your work for you doesn't make you right. You have not provided any evidence, lap times, fuel eficiency, etc to back up your claims. Sorry but that's not a discussion, that's an I'm right you're wrong child's argument.

FYI, I have read articles on Autosport, F1Fanatic and others all demonstrating the improvements to the engine without being 'acolytes' as you claim. It's obvious you are just out to be argumentative for the purposes of thinking that's the 'smart' challenge but to me it shows your childish and think the internet is for trolling and well honestly that's what ruins the vast majority of it.
I still see no proof. Where is the promised improvement? I'm just saying I don't see it.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 15:58 (Ref:3832136)   #65
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for me i like the change as i think it keeps RB in the sport, gives them manu backing and money, and improves Honda's position/influence to affect engine rules because they supply 2 teams now.

and with RB's considerable PR weight behind them it might even be possible to force a change a season earlier than 2021 or at least get a set of regs that suits them better then what Merc/Ferrari/Renault are pushing for.

actually the one rule i hope they can get changed immediately via better representation is the reduced PU allotment rules.

maybe its silly but still hoping for the best from Honda...a competitive Merc vs Ferrari vs Renault VS Honda is an exciting prospect to look forward.

not so much about short term performance but more so about long term potential which imo this deal maximizes.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 16:20 (Ref:3832143)   #66
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I do remember a graphic during fp3 that showed four or five different cars through a speed trap. The fastest was the torro rosso. Was surprising to see that, and I think it shows improvement right there.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 16:32 (Ref:3832145)   #67
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I am generally at a loss as to how to respond. There is no need to pound my head against the wall on this. But before I move along I will post just one example of articles that came out after the Canadian upgrade.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...an-gp-1045560/

I think the only way to justify the stance the Honda is not making progress is to call articles such as the above as outright lies and that improved reliability is down to pure luck.

Lastly, I will say... avoid conflating STR/Honda with... Honda as a F1 supplier. It is like measuring Renault by looking at McLaren, or Mercedes by looking at Williams. Nothing against STR, but teams don’t always live up to the capability of the power unit.

Richard
All I'm saying is, there are a lot of GPs coming up in very quick succession and we will see whether STR/Honda are on the upswing, or not, come the summer break. I hope they are, as I would like to see another team up there challenging Ferrari and Mercedes, it's what F1 needs.
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 17:20 (Ref:3832173)   #68
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All I'm saying is, there are a lot of GPs coming up in very quick succession and we will see whether STR/Honda are on the upswing, or not, come the summer break. I hope they are, as I would like to see another team up there challenging Ferrari and Mercedes, it's what F1 needs.
Understand your thoughts here.

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actually the one rule i hope they can get changed immediately via better representation is the reduced PU allotment rules.
I agree. I can't remember the details, but someone keeps saying "no" when the topic is broached. I seem to remember it being Mercedes and/or Ferrari. I expect those that think they have the right level of reliability and are not expecting to see large gains from further development see an increase in allotment as a way for others to catch up... Which they publicly say they want the competition, but in reality nobody wants "real" competition. They want the other guy to be close... but in second place.

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Old 20 Jun 2018, 17:26 (Ref:3832178)   #69
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We need to see how fast the Toro Rossos are after the summer break
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Old 20 Jun 2018, 23:11 (Ref:3832231)   #70
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At least it has confirmed my thought that Toro Rosso brought in two "test drivers" this year, to try out the Honda unit, knowing they were not really going to get far up the grid with it..

Hartley was definitely a test driver bought in for his reliability and technical prowess. So much for that as he massively crashes in the last 3 rounds



Gasly isn't a test driver though, at all. If they were to bring in another driver just for testing purposes, you'd get someone with good F1 experience like Di Resta, Weirhein, Massa, Gutierrez or heck you'd keep the guy that drove TR when it was a Renault... Kyvat!



TR need Gasly for when D Ric moves on in case something happens with Sainz Jr (like maybe Renault gets in front of RB!). And boy now that they've switched to Honda, what is Dan waiting for? I'd be offering my services for free to Merc or Ferrari. Dan could win the title in that Ferrari. Don't waste any more of your prime years in the 3rd best car, you can't win when you've got talents like Lewis and Seb in the top 2 teams.



Even if RB manage to cling on to 3rd best still next year, surely they won't be anywhere near as close to the top 2 as they are now. We don't really know how much of a step Honda has made yet... Hartley's first 2 laps in quali were slower than Gasly in the old engine. Plus maybe TR were slow as **** in the corners to get that high top speed.
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Old 21 Jun 2018, 01:01 (Ref:3832236)   #71
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I do remember a graphic during fp3 that showed four or five different cars through a speed trap. The fastest was the torro rosso. Was surprising to see that, and I think it shows improvement right there.
That was an experimental low downforce setup that Hartley immediately dismissed as not working.
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Old 21 Jun 2018, 03:16 (Ref:3832247)   #72
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That was an experimental low downforce setup that Hartley immediately dismissed as not working.
Gasly was 3rd in FP3 speedtraps, then nowhere in qualy (when he reverted to the old engine). No doubt that also would explain why Gasly, with the upgrade back in for the race was again right up in the speed trap figures, faster than Hamilton, both Ferraris, both Renaults, both Red Bulls and others....
Gasly was also moved to comment post race that the engine upgrade was so superior to the old engine, making comments to effect of the new engine was pulling like a schoolboy!
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Old 21 Jun 2018, 04:26 (Ref:3832250)   #73
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Toro Rosso don't have nearly as capable a team as Red Bull, so they're hit and miss on things like setup. But when they're on it, they're at or near the front of the midfield. Take Bahrain for example when they got 4th place, in one of their first races with the Honda. McLaren with the Honda reached that maybe once or twice in all their years with them. As for being at or near the top of the speed traps, some might say they're running little wing, but they also placed 7th at Monaco with only the top 3 teams and Ocon's Force India ahead of Gasly. With Red Bull owning Toro Rosso, and them running Honda's vs RB's Renault's, they have all the data they need to make that decision. Being a customer of Renault is not an unbearable expense for them, they have plenty of money. I think it's more about equal or better performance with the Honda and the potential they see with the engine in their much better car than Toro Rosso.
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Old 21 Jun 2018, 06:07 (Ref:3832261)   #74
thunderbolt
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thunderbolt should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
I still see no proof. Where is the promised improvement? I'm just saying I don't see it.
one thing that may have been over looked (do toro rosso and red bull share f1 race simulater_)
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/i...-really-works/

The simulator is equipped with sensors that keep a record of every input of the driver. It is used by rookies to learn the new tracks, by the veterans to refresh their memory and, most importantly, to validate the set-up of the real F1 cars.

data settings for a honda engine in the redbull f1 race simulator would not be that hard
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Old 21 Jun 2018, 08:15 (Ref:3832283)   #75
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Mekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMekola should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid

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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
There probably was (rightfully so) low expectations of STR by those pulling the strings. So it didn't make sense to follow the path of a McLaren (hire expensive but proven driver)

Richard
They need another MV to test the Honda engine.
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