How can GP2 become more relevant, again?

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by spider

Perhaps GP2 really should be run with 1/2 x year old F1 cars, with restrictive regulations/performance (revs) - ART for example, running an old Ferrari car. The test teams of the F1 team can supply support to the GP2 outfits, and then at least the F1 teams are more likely to be excited about trialing their drivers in the series.

IMO, that's going to be really expensive and the rift in technology will introduce a less level field. Junior formulas are primarily for training and promoting young talent. Most people don't care about those series, and this is why it should be made as cheap as possible.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Formulahistory

I think the problem is to be searched in Formula One. There are a very limites number of cars: Only 22, and there are also no changes during the year, so with just 22 drivers for one year almost no young driver has to chance to step up - only if they have money. In 1989 there were 39 cars entered for one Grand Prix and the teams often changed their drivers.

That's what the economy and sponsors can support right now.. Back in the day there were more teams, but a lot of them were also kind of incompetent. Some failed to qualify for the race quite often.

I think another problem is that too many good drivers make the jump into F1 from GP3 and WSR 3.5, thus making the GP2 field look like a bunch of slim pickings. Sometimes GP2 looks like a bunch of underwhelming drivers who were there for 3-4 years and still can't dominate the field reliably. For example, the last year pretty much no F1 team had interest in any of GP2 drivers unless the team is broke and needs a sponsor, and I probably can't blame them.

I think something needs to be done to convince the existing Formula 1 teams to provide more sponsorship support for GP2 series. Perhaps even the F1 could be offered additional perks if they agreed to sponsor GP2 drivers or a whole team.

[ptclaus98]

I think GP2 would be better off partnering with other top line single seater championships to create a situation where Super Formula and perhaps IndyCar but ideally an entirely different championship for this part of the world can compete in the same race if they choose, and then have a couple of big money open competitions a la Macau. Because the problem with this level of racing is that it's not sustainable for talented youngsters to keep coming through and F1 teams to keep bringing their drivers through whilst having them compete against others at a high level. On top of that, GP2 has an identity problem as it is. Is it a place where the most talented drivers can compete for championships from day 1 or is it a place where you are constantly learning how to race at an elite level to prepare yourself for the rigors of F1? The latter doesn't sound like a ladder series to me. At the level of GP2, surely the drivers are professional(for the most part), right? I mean, take the likes of Sam Bird, Alex Rossi, and Robin Frijns. These guys are contracted drivers of professional teams, they are contracted test and demo drivers, who represent their teams at many official functions. So why are they driving tarted up spec cars with unbadged engines? Why can't all the teams be given the same car and then develop it as the season goes on? The rise in development costs could be matched by decrease in travel costs.

[steve nielsen]

the big problem is: pay drivers because it costs so much to run

while there are some real talented drivers without a seat because they can't pay(for instance: Frijns)

there is more talent in WSR currently(cheaper?)

[p-matt]

I don't understand why people on here think the drivers in 3.5 are better. I'd say they are very comparable but gp2 edges it. I'd have Leimer, Bird, Calado, Nasr, Ericsson, Palmer, Rossi, Dillman and Frijns over the likes of Stevens, Melker and Muller any day.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by p-matt

I don't understand why people on here think the drivers in 3.5 are better. I'd say they are very comparable but gp2 edges it. I'd have Leimer, Bird, Calado, Nasr, Ericsson, Palmer, Rossi, Dillman and Frijns over the likes of Stevens, Melker and Muller any day.

You seem to have forgotten Kevin, Stoffel, Antonio, Carlos Sainz, Wil Buller and others from the 3.5 list!

Palmer and Dillman, really??

[Go_For_Pole]

The one thing that I never, ever got: how come Moto2 has sponsors and free drives and yet GP2 fails so miserably in comparison

[p-matt]

Kevin, Stoffel and Antonio are all givens obviously.

I'm not utterly sold on Sainz or Buller - both very quick but not consistent enough. Sainz is still a bit wild and Buller can't keep his pace over a race. I think he'd look quite poor in GP2 with the F1 style tyres.

I've never been convinced by Palmer but he's been very quick this year. His racecraft and overtaking prowess has been very strong.

As for Dillmann, everyone has always raved about him on here until he does a full GP2 season! Quick and intelligent - his race in Barcelona his year coming through the field was excellent.

If you want to make an argument about depth of the respective fields, for every Rosenzweig, de Jong, Canamasas or Trummer you have a Move, Cunha, Amberg or a Foresti.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Go_For_Pole

The one thing that I never, ever got: how come Moto2 has sponsors and free drives and yet GP2 fails so miserably in comparison

Because bikes are cheaper than cars, and by some ways.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by p-matt

Kevin, Stoffel and Antonio are all givens obviously.

I'm not utterly sold on Sainz or Buller - both very quick but not consistent enough. Sainz is still a bit wild and Buller can't keep his pace over a race. I think he'd look quite poor in GP2 with the F1 style tyres.

I've never been convinced by Palmer but he's been very quick this year. His racecraft and overtaking prowess has been very strong.

As for Dillmann, everyone has always raved about him on here until he does a full GP2 season! Quick and intelligent - his race in Barcelona his year coming through the field was excellent.

If you want to make an argument about depth of the respective fields, for every Rosenzweig, de Jong, Canamasas or Trummer you have a Move, Cunha, Amberg or a Foresti.

No, I agree, the backside of both series is awash with limited talent, but the problem I see with GP2 at present is that it somehow makes some very average drivers look much better than they really are, and has also managed to make a few good ones looks far worse!

This has to be a result of the tyres, or engineering deficiencies of some of the teams and there is no way in the world Palmer is better than Nasr, or Calado surely?

In there somewhere is part of the answer to the series relevance again... It's not just a cost issue, it's a regulation or specification issue perhaps?

Now what about Vandoorne, fair enough he was fastest in the last day of the test yesterday, but can McLaren really justify spending 2 million quid or whatever on his entry if he doesn't get a clear possibility to show his true worth because of factors outside of his control?

[bella]

i found it a bit interesting that they were only testing the medium compound for 3 days. how can the drivers who are staying on and the potential customers considering the series get an idea of what they're being offered and learn and progress if they can't have a go with a shorter lifespan tyre as well?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by bella

i found it a bit interesting that they were only testing the medium compound for 3 days. how can the drivers who are staying on and the potential customers considering the series get an idea of what they're being offered and learn and progress if they can't have a go with a shorter lifespan tyre as well?

We can wonder indeed!!!!

[bella]

i guess it's good because it saved faffing around shipping a whole ton of different tyres for an overseas test and it keeps things simple but... how are you supposed to learn how to conserve tyres if you can't use them in the off season test?

[Go_For_Pole]

There are also pre-season tests so... but yeah you have a point in saying that a buyer has the right to know what their buying plus that by such choices they make it even harder for rookies. All in all though such considerations pale in significance compared to budget cost.

PS Are Moto2 budget that lower? Having googled some time ago I saw figures close to 1m Euros per bike, was this way off mark?

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

I think the big difference with Moto2/Moto3, apart from the costs, is that they are truly spectator sports, unlike GP2/GP3 or WSR. There are many factors coming into play, the smaller and intermediate categories have had FIM world championship status since 1949 just like 500cc/MotoGP, also the 3 races are packed into less than 4 hours mean that the whole package is attractive to big TV channels like Eurosport, etc.

Also the class structure is so much easier to understand, you used to have 125cc, 250cc and 500cc, and now Moto3, Moto2 and MotoGP, which pretty straight forward even for the casual viewer. very much unlike the ladder to F1 which confuses everyone bar the hardcores.

[Go_For_Pole]

Ok, I don't agree with some of your arguments but I believe you have two good points: firstly especially GP3 but to a degree also GP2 are lost in the morning hours. Instead fans will watch the boring Supercup and will have to live with long breaks between races. Moreover, GP2 and GP3 are not World Titles that could possibly be good selling points for teams. That fact that FIA and CVC don't see eye to eye is to blame of course, yet it is ridiculous especially for GP2 that I believe meets the geographical criteria of a FIA World Championship.

[p-matt]

Originally Posted by chunterer

the problem I see with GP2 at present is that it somehow makes some very average drivers look much better than they really are, and has also managed to make a few good ones looks far worse!

This has to be a result of the tyres, or engineering deficiencies of some of the teams and there is no way in the world Palmer is better than Nasr, or Calado surely?

I don't think anyone's genuinely saying that Palmer is better than Nasr or Calado. And as a feeder series to F1, GP2 needs to prepare its drivers by having high deg tyres.

I see it the other way around. Given that 3.5 is unquestionably less complex than gp2, I think it has flattered the likes of Magnussen and Vandoorne. Both are very quick but we've not seen them manage tyres or come through the field that much. Without McLaren's support I don't think either man would be well equipped for an F1 season by dominating 3.5.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure Kevin would have done very well in gp2 this year but he wouldn't have looked nearly as dominant. Vandoorne I'm not so sure about that but we'll see next year.

[ivanalesi]

Does anyone know why there are such big gaps between sessions on F1 weekends? For example there's always a 45 minute break between GP3 qualifying and F1 FP3. Which is super annoying for drivers as you've got out of bed just 2-3 hours ago... The weekend isn't compact at all, despite that there are always many fans watching GP2 and I think they enjoy it. But for GP3 they can hardly get to the track at a reasonable time to enjoy the races. Saturday is finishing at 6PM and the Sunday's race is from 9AM.
I know that the organizers put some extra effort to prepare for F1, but it doesn't make any sense to have such big gaps when you have such a strong organization.

[m355y]

I think 3.5 has an advantage over GP2, in terms of the quality of the talent there. A driver will rarely stay for that many years in 3.5 because success in that category that falls short of actually winning it leads to GP2 offers, and drivers move on, leaving a 'fresher' bunch of first or second year drivers to make the headlines whereas the likes of Valsecchi, Leimer et al will plug away for years building up experience trying to win GP2. Then when they achieve it they're already in their mid twenties and winning the championship is more the culmination of years of hard work than an instant springboard to the big time. I think we'll see this more and more in future seasons, Coletti next year maybe, Nasr? Even Calado.

If you take the top three from 3.5 as Magnusson, Vandoorne, Da Costa vs the top three from GP2 as Leimer, Bird and Calado, 3.5 has it by a mile this year. Behind them it's probably more even.

[bella]

in 3.5, the average season is 50% rookies, 50% second and third years and daniil move. i've not looked at the past 2-3 years of gp2 but it can't be all that different?

[m355y]

Move and Aleshin will still be competing in 3.5 when they get their pensions.

Far less first and second years in the top ten of GP2 I'd say.

[Hawkwood]

GP2 2013 - 9 of the top 10 are in their (at least) 2nd year in the category. Only Rossi was a rookie. Dillman didn't complete the whole 2012 GP2 season, but he completed about 2/3 to 3/4 of it so IMO 2013 counts as his second season.

FR3.5 2013 - 7 of the top 10 are in their (at least) 2nd year in the category. Vandoorne, Sirotkin and Melker were the rookies.



But yes, Aleshin and Move really need to move on now, they've had 6 and 6.5 (respectively) seasons in 3.5 - it's a bit of a joke IMO but each to their own I suppose.

[Formulahistory]

Both will races GT next season for Zlobin's team (perhaps also LMP2), I think.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

But yes, Aleshin and Move really need to move on now, they've had 6 and 6.5 (respectively) seasons in 3.5 - it's a bit of a joke IMO but each to their own I suppose.

hey, as long as they're paying decent money for their drives and keeping people in jobs and paid on time who cares how long they've been there. neither of them are at the back or making idiots of themselves. much. 3.5 just about has the sweet spot of having enough paying drivers for the number of drives available as a result of their, er, loyalty

[m355y]

The thing with Move and Aleshin is that 3.5 is probably the best they're going to do. They ain't going to F1 - Aleshin won the 3.5 title and yet he's still there plugging away, the ship has sailed for both of them. What's next, sportscars? Can see why both would rather continue in a high profile single seater series than do that. GP2 has the equivalents in Leimer and co and maybe there GP2 comes right into its own because experience counts for so much and Leimer just won the title. It still won't help him get to F1 and probably distorts things a bit because rookies in GP2 tend to struggle yet in 3.5 they usually star.