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Old 8 Apr 2018, 13:56 (Ref:3813996)   #331
Richard Casto
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I generally have quit posting in this thread as I didn’t think I had anything new to contribute. We are many pages in and it is the same arguments going around in circles. I also firmly believe that people like Peter are unlikely to change their position given additional discussion. I just don’t see the point in further engagement. But I think Peter question below is interesting...

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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?
I read this as to why F1 didn’t make this change earlier. That the timing is more in sync with something like the #MeToo movement? Further, I think Peter is saying this is part of the “jumping on a bandwagon” argument. With the implication that it was not done for moral reasons. And if it wasn’t done for moral reasons then it is wrong?

Sorry if I am interpreting that wrong.

Let’s say for arguments sake that there was a bandwagon passing by and F1 jumped on it. Who can say what was in the hearts of those making the decision. Did they have a sudden epiphany and decide they should adopt a new moral stance, or maybe it was purely a commercial decision and morals played no part? Or maybe it wasn’t such a black and white decision (everyone loves to think the world is black and white) and maybe it was some balance of both (of which we will never know the ratios). Does it even matter?

I think back to stories of the segregation era here in the US. Across the entire country you would have had the entire spectrum of scenarios. Businesses who where fully segregated by choice due to their version of morals, others who were fully integrated due to a moral position and maybe others that were either segregated or integrated that might actually be operating against their moral principles. Maybe they had to make a business decision that may have been contrary to their moral position. Clearly when laws were changed, some were forced to operate in a way that was contrary to their moral positions. Does anyone argue it was not for the overall good? The country (and world) still has a long way to go yet, but progress has been made.

My point here is not that I am equating racial segregation to the issues of gender (some may and I am also ok with that), but I am saying... who cares why or when F1 made this decision. Their timing or reasoning can’t be a valid reason to attack the basic concept. Recent attacks on this paint it in a purely cynical way and also label it as a “fad” (time will tell!)

I would argue that race and gender issues are not a fad. Change has been a slow progression over centuries. And progress is never a smooth linear line graphed over time. Change comes in lurching jumps. They can and will be disruptive. Just as what we are seeing now.

But, the change does appear on a timeline and sometime it is significant enough that there is a clear before and an after. So trying to find meaning to why it happened at particular moment is best understood with hindsight. We can discuss it today, but don’t expect grand insight until we can look back.

With that being said... My opinion is that clearly the decision was not made in a vacuum. That what else that was going on in the world at that time was a factor. We can’t ignore the timing in relation to the #MeToo movement. That movement and the associated discussion allowed other long simmering gender related issues to bubble up from below. Some, such as grid girls, may not have been on many people’s radar, so this seems like it came out of nowhere. For others (I put myself in that camp), knew that it was a topic that lived just below the surface of the general collective consciousness.

And, regardless of what you think of that movement, it has a limited impact on how people should view the new stance by F1 on grid girls. That decision should be able to stand on it own merits.

Richard

Last edited by Richard Casto; 8 Apr 2018 at 14:04.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 14:26 (Ref:3814028)   #332
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I don't think the emergence of the #MeToo campaign/movement and the subsequent announcement to ban Grid Girls, is a coincidence.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3814038)   #333
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Well, if we've learned one thing from history, it's that the majority is always right and the minority should just shut up and take it!

Err.... Seems like just a couple days ago was the 50th anniversary of the assassination of someone who may have disagreed with that though....
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Hmm. But surely that's a good example? The injustice was finally voted out by a majority.
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Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?

[emphasis added]



Disagree entriely. Since if you take the moral high ground on something be prepared for the consequences:

The brand values mentioned above appear to be for childish announcements of drivers (see Austin last year); some kind of mascot; an inability to control the manufacturers; and, a pointless change to the timing of the events.



They've put themselves in that position by what I can only assume is a rush of naivity. Agreed they've only been there a year but surely in that year rather than do daft stuff like following the herd, they should just concentrate on the real issue. Nothing wrong in adopting, adapting and improving. But to make it work it has to be in that order. Not what this was, a knee jerk reaction.

And now they have Monaco and Russia refusing to comply. What will they do about that? I'd assume they would have to cancel the meetings because it does not reflect the company's moral ideals.

I do have a view about the #metoo movement which started in October last year, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Nonetheless if it locks away slime-balls like those who are alleged to have carried out these atrocities then more power to the movement.
Hmm.... Let's revisit your question to me a few pages back. Did the majority just jump on a bandwagon or follow the herd? Or did something and/or someone come up that made them notice something wrong with the current situation? Was it wrong that the majority shifted from being for segregation to against? Should we question their motives?

Edit: hey Richard, in another thread I said don't change. I meant that as a compliment, in case it came off as anything other than one. I enjoy your posts!
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 17:07 (Ref:3814070)   #334
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...... Further, I think Peter is saying this is part of the “jumping on a bandwagon” argument. With the implication that it was not done for moral reasons. ........
No, not at all. It was not done because they hadn't thought about it.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 18:57 (Ref:3814140)   #335
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Edit: hey Richard, in another thread I said don't change. I meant that as a compliment, in case it came off as anything other than one. I enjoy your posts!
Thanks! I took it as you intended.

Richard
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 15:59 (Ref:3814441)   #336
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is this really a change in Liberty policy though?

still no change in their policy of no grid girls (the placard/sign holder variety) and local promoters can still do their thing in terms of their own needs...im not sure i see much change in what Monaco and Russia are suggesting they want to do or a backtracking by Liberty.

imo, sensible heads have prevailed as everyone is figuring out the new paradigm.

i also think a good balance was struck in Bahrain.

kids on the grid, a nice horn and string section playing the anthem instead of canned music and a line of ladies...although they were still there in fewer numbers including a couple of Gulf Air flight attendants on the podium even.

those of us who think the practice was superfluous/over the top have seen a big reduction of that, the local promoter can still appease their corporate sponsors (in this case Gulf Air), still pretty girls around for those that are there but now done in more subtle (and frankly classier) way.

the glamour and glitz of F1 has remained intact at an opulent race course with celebs on the grid and elaborate fireworks show at the end.

a good example of compromise and civility!
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:16 (Ref:3814448)   #337
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Seeing as they are no longer at Monaco going to be performing a grid girl function, but be merely their for prettying the grid up, do we now need to call them grid embellishments? That sounds worse than grid girls.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:16 (Ref:3814449)   #338
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I watched (just) the race on TV on Sunday so didn't see any of the before & after events so can't comment on what was used with/instead of girls.
My main reason for this was that I decided to watch all three BTCC races 'live' on TV and although I wasn't specifically looking for them did notice that there were no shots of the Grid Girls from Brands Hatch. Maybe, because of the weather there weren't any (although I'm sure I briefly glimpsed a girl holding a grid position board once). Usually it was an ITV 4 standard to show the cars arriving at their grid position shot to include the Grid Girl...
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:25 (Ref:3814451)   #339
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I watched (just) the race on TV on Sunday so didn't see any of the before & after events so can't comment on what was used with/instead of girls.
My main reason for this was that I decided to watch all three BTCC races 'live' on TV and although I wasn't specifically looking for them did notice that there were no shots of the Grid Girls from Brands Hatch. Maybe, because of the weather there weren't any (although I'm sure I briefly glimpsed a girl holding a grid position board once). Usually it was an ITV 4 standard to show the cars arriving at their grid position shot to include the Grid Girl...
They had Karting Kids at Bahrain, like Melbourne.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 17:00 (Ref:3814463)   #340
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I watched (just) the race on TV on Sunday so didn't see any of the before & after events so can't comment on what was used with/instead of girls.
My main reason for this was that I decided to watch all three BTCC races 'live' on TV and although I wasn't specifically looking for them did notice that there were no shots of the Grid Girls from Brands Hatch. Maybe, because of the weather there weren't any (although I'm sure I briefly glimpsed a girl holding a grid position board once). Usually it was an ITV 4 standard to show the cars arriving at their grid position shot to include the Grid Girl...
Similar to the BTCC media day at Donington, most teams didn't make use of their media girls. From the broadcast on Sunday, it appeared that one or two teams did have their girls on the grid, but the noticeable difference was that the cameraman didn't, as previously, pan up and down the young ladies.

And, Turkington stated to Louise on the grid that a piece of sticky tape on the windscreen that he was adjusting was so that he could line up in the right place on the grid without someone to hold up a board.
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Old 25 May 2018, 09:44 (Ref:3824520)   #341
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Grid girls are back!

Well done to the Monaco GP organisers for not jumping on the bandwagon.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/18348





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Old 25 May 2018, 10:06 (Ref:3824525)   #342
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I'm not sure how motorsportweek can call this news - as it is hardly newly received or noteworthy information?
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Old 25 May 2018, 16:53 (Ref:3824582)   #343
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Well it is a pretty lean time as far as real news is concerned

After all this race is more about celeb's and fashion than actual racing
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Old 25 May 2018, 17:33 (Ref:3824588)   #344
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Just to add, the young ladies will not be grid girls, per se, but will be promoting their temporary employer, Tag Heuer. I do not believe that they will be on the grid to hold the drivers' placards as in the past, and possibly not even on the grid at all.
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Old 25 May 2018, 18:25 (Ref:3824609)   #345
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Just to add, the young ladies will not be grid girls, per se, but will be promoting their temporary employer, Tag Heuer. I do not believe that they will be on the grid to hold the drivers' placards as in the past, and possibly not even on the grid at all.
So they aren't really grid girls.
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