GT3 v's Supercar v's SuperTouring v's TCR - The Ultimate Thread

[ForumNick]

Isn't the ZB smaller than the VF?
If so, then maybe they didn't have to chop much (if any?)

[chavez]

Originally Posted by one five five

What touring car Championships did the Skyline DR30, that chavez was referring too, kill?

I was referring to how Nissan developed the HR31 to overcome the DR30's shortcomings. But the point was about the effort that went into developing a winning package compared to what is allowed under the current rules.

Often the GTR is cited as nearly killing the ATCC but I believe it saved the ATCC. The "domination" during the '91 - '92 lead many people to want more local content in the championship and the result of that is the championship we see today.

We were fortunate at the time that a core group of strong teams existed that were able to discard their current cars and invest in the new rules for 1993.

Today we find ourselves with the new GEN 2 regulations with only one team committing themselves to them.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chavez

The "domination" during the '91 - '92 lead many people to want more local content in the championship and the result of that is the championship we see today.

We were fortunate at the time that a core group of strong teams existed that were able to discard their current cars and invest in the new rules for 1993.

Surely ignoring the world-standard 2000cc British regulations was the wrong thing to do though?

Those regulations delivered world class action https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEfiwyiV8hs and crucially, would have allowed Ford, Holden, BMW, Nissan and Toyota to all compete for outright victory.

Isn't such variety what fans love!?

Surely alienating BMW, Nissan and Toyota from the ATCC was inappropriate and of poor ethics!?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Surely ignoring the world-standard 2000cc British regulations was the wrong thing to do though?

Another category that sadly didn't know what was good for it and imploded due to spiraling costs.

It is interested to hold up all these other categories, all excellent in their own right, but none have managed anything approaching the stability of the (V8)Supercars long term. That has to say something.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

It is interested to hold up all these other categories, all excellent in their own right, but none have managed anything approaching the stability of the (V8)Supercars long term. That has to say something.

While I don't disagree with the point you are getting at, (V8)Supercars reinvented itself 4 times between 1993 and now which allowed the longevity, whereas Group A, Super Touring etc.. had the regs run to their natural conclusion and then a new set of regulations were started from scratch.

[racer69]

I agree with justabout all that chavez and one five five are saying, the sad thing is the whole thing has probably come too far for the newer fanbase to accept anything different.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

While I don't disagree with the point you are getting at, (V8)Supercars reinvented itself 4 times between 1993 and now which allowed the longevity, whereas Group A, Super Touring etc.. had the regs run to their natural conclusion and then a new set of regulations were started from scratch.

They were evolutions other than COTF and engine regs really never changed until now. No other class lasted half as long.

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[FIRE]

Originally Posted by chavez

It is certainly not due to the cars.

I don't agree.
It's the total package including the cars.

[Mixer]

CAMS signs an agreement that apparently allows for an introduction of TCR in Australia in 2019, but CAMS needs to a sign a deal with a promoter first:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2018/01/24...oduction-2019/

[bludvl_x19]

Take us back 12 months ago... Who was it that was saying there was no place for TCR in Australia, and they wouldn't be issuing a Category Management Agreement?

EDIT: Not the article I am looking for, but relevant. https://autoaction.com.au/2017/01/26/tcr-blocked

[Ospi]

Great news

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[Umai Naa]

The future is here.

[GTRMagic]

Yay! More categories in an already overcrowded marketplace.

Wonder if Supercar might apply for category management rights

[Backagain]

Nuts. More little buzzboxes running around.
To be supported by the new Toyota Prius cup, each race run in two stages with a 2 hours and 10 minutes break to recharge batteries.

[Umai Naa]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Yay! More categories in an already overcrowded marketplace.

Wonder if Supercar might apply for category management rights

They will, if that's where they're heading.

[racer69]

I really don't understand how they will get TCR up and running from scratch in Australia. They will have to find a minimum of 15 cars from a competitor base that doesn't currently exist. It's the same challenge facing Super5000 in my opinion.

When V8Supercars brought in the CotF rules in 2013 that required brand new cars, there was already a competitor base. The new SuperUte series starts this year from a base of V8Ute competitors that already existed. When the ATCC switched to Group C in 1973, to Group A in 1985 and to V8s in 1993, there was already a competitor base existing or a pool of cars that were racing that could be up-specced to race under the new regulations. Similiarly when Class 2/Super Touring started here, plenty of old Group A cars were eligible and they bulked up the field while newer cars slowly entered the series over the next 2-3 years.

TCR has no base to build on, and neither really does Super5000 given the dire world of Australian open-wheel racing.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by racer69

I really don't understand how they will get TCR up and running from scratch in Australia. They will have to find a minimum of 15 cars from a competitor base that doesn't currently exist. It's the same challenge facing Super5000 in my opinion.

When V8Supercars brought in the CotF rules in 2013 that required brand new cars, there was already a competitor base. The new SuperUte series starts this year from a base of V8Ute competitors that already existed. When the ATCC switched to Group C in 1973, to Group A in 1985 and to V8s in 1993, there was already a competitor base existing or a pool of cars that were racing that could be up-specced to race under the new regulations. Similiarly when Class 2/Super Touring started here, plenty of old Group A cars were eligible and they bulked up the field while newer cars slowly entered the series over the next 2-3 years.

TCR has no base to build on, and neither really does Super5000 given the dire world of Australian open-wheel racing.

Given the enormous manufacturer backing in other series of TCR worldwide, with ready , existing (and market relevant) cars, relatively inexpensive to run, in the hands of a decent financially sound promoter prepared to invest in the future I can see a future for the category.

To give an idea of the manufacturer backing TCR enjoys, Audi, SEAT, Volkswagen, Ford, Alfa Romeo, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Lada, Opel (Holden), Peugeot, Renault, Skoda, and Subaru have all developed cars for the category.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by E.B

Given the enormous manufacturer backing in other series of TCR worldwide, with ready , existing (and market relevant) cars, relatively inexpensive to run, in the hands of a decent financially sound promoter prepared to invest in the future I can see a future for the category.

To give an idea of the manufacturer backing TCR enjoys, Audi, SEAT, Volkswagen, Ford, Alfa Romeo, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Lada, Opel (Holden), Peugeot, Renault, Skoda, and Subaru have all developed cars for the category.

I get all that, but it's going a require a lot of leaps of faith from prospective competitors to get the series happening.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by racer69

I get all that, but it's going a require a lot of leaps of faith from prospective competitors to get the series happening.

Agreed for sure and it wont happen overnight. I am not suggesting for one minute that VASC/Super2 should be quaking in their boots.

Ultimately the future for TCR in Aus. depends on 2 words... Promotion and TV.

[Mixer]

Surely the first thing is to get them into the 12hr?

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[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Yay!

Wonder if Supercar might apply for category management rights

And if they did, I wonder what are the chances of CAMS giving it to them

[Umai Naa]

In exchange for a large sum of money?

Likely.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Umai Naa

In exchange for a large sum of money?

Likely.

Or CAMS say sure...if you give them full support status to VASC meetings!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Backagain

Nuts. More little buzzboxes running around.

What's wrong with buzzboxes?

Besides in road-going form so called 2L buzzboxes like the Civic Type R and GTI 40 Years are significantly faster than a 1995 5L Holden Commodore SS. Indeed the 220kW Civic Type R has the same 80-120 km/hr time as the nearly twice as powerful 430kW HSV GTS, according to Motor magazine! It's not the size of your engine, it's how you use it, eh?

Overtaking from 80-120km/h [in the Civic Type R] takes just 2.8sec in third and 7.7sec in sixth – by way of comparison, a manual HSV GTS needs 2.8sec and 7.6sec respectively.

https://www.motormag.com.au/reviews/...-type-r-review

Buzzboxes are far more relevant to what many people are going to buy and drive every day. VF Commodore SSV is a very nice car -- true, but it sures like a drink, so I would strongly consider the Civic Type R that performs nearly as good (in fact the Civic is nearly a full second faster than the SSV from 80 to 120 km/hr, despite 1/3rd the engine size!) and drinks a lot less -- wouldn't you?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by racer69

I really don't understand how they will get TCR up and running from scratch in Australia. They will have to find a minimum of 15 cars from a competitor base that doesn't currently exist.

I don't see a problem.

TCR is significantly cheaper than Carrera Cup or even GT4 yet has far more opportunities for manufacturer alignment and sponsorship.


It is no brainer to leave some of these other categories and join TCR!

TCR would also likely tempt folks who are currently running state Porsche series for old Carrera Cups. TCR would offer similar, or lower, costs with the benefits of being on the national stage.

Costs would likely be on par with the Australia Manufacturer Series (once a car is built up there with Alcon brakes and fancy shocks, the costs are likely on par or greater than TCR anyway), so many runners from the production series should be tempted across too. (Remember all the TCRs run *stock* engines like production series. Very durable, reliable, inexpensive. All engine parts readily available from the manufacturer.)