Rallycross 2010 post-mortem

[jimmynova]

Originally Posted by adamszx636

hi all just my 10 cents worth , a few things that i as a clubman rallycrosser ( currently not racing due to cost ) think dont make people stay racing are

1) entry cost for BTRDA stock hatch is the same give or take as that of an MSA Supercar entry ?? The guys running supercars obviously have a large amount of money more than the average stockhatch driver and also most have various sponsors helping out in different ways??? Can there not be a graded pricing to encourage new people to get in to rallycross and to continue in the sport ?? I.E S/Hatch £75, Supermod £125 and supercar £175 or simiular??

2) Stock cars should be stock cars?? ok with safety/protection/and suspension mods , but no engine mods be it "chips/remaps, induction kits or any other mod from factory standard, this would i think help get newer cars into the class as handling and power etc generally gets better the newer the car is.

3) Cap BHP , if your car is rolling roaded and is over the agreed limit, its illegal simple, stops people spending money on things to get more and more power, after all its a "stock class"

4) The reason i believe that there are so many 205 still in stock hatch are that they on paper produce more BHP than any other 8v hatch and can run at a lighter weight in accordance with BRDA regs, which state that the Saxo/106 must be no less than 910kg but the 205 can be 895kg, so with the weight difference coupled with the BHP of a post '87 205 GTI of 115bhp compared to the saxo vtr's 100BHP ??!?!?!?!??! so this give no incentive to bring in newer cars.

just a few ideas for people to ponder over :-)

All good valid points but this would all need to be closely regulated and i don't believe the stock hatch class is as closely monitored as it should be!

The stock hatch class allows 16v engines to be used now so the saxo vts is 120bhp standard as is a 106 gti so thought more of these would be getting used as a replacement to the older 205's

With regards to the new minis being a good alternative to the swifts again a good point but still not a "budget" class compared to stock hatch i believe they still cost upwards of 5k to build where as you can pick up a stock hatch for £1500. You could build a modified 2000 car for less than a BMW mini.

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by jimmynova

The stock hatch class allows 16v engines to be used now so the saxo vts is 120bhp standard as is a 106 gti so thought more of these would be getting used as a replacement to the older 205's

£6k vs. £2.5k is the problem.

[chunder]

Haha, if you think you can build a modified that won't be last in every race for 6 grand you are dreaming!!

That might just cover the cost of the gearbox! Oh hang on,l maybe just the rebuilds!!

[jimmynova]

chunder i think dave is referring to the saxo vts not a modified!!!

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by jimmynova

chunder i think dave is referring to the saxo vts not a modified!!!

Yep, I was, cheers jimmynova. I'll spell it out: £6k is the cost of a competitive Saxo VTS stock hatch, £2.5k is the cost of a competitive 205 gti stock hatch.

[dcdesign]

Maybe there should be more evolution in the series... when you start with a stockhatch 205, and you want to race with some more power, you have to go to modifieds, racing against 2.0 turbo's... so unless you're a big spender, you have to drive at the back of the field...

bring in Div 1a, but like the supernational kl1 in Norway, it's basicly the same like 1a, but the homologation rules aren't there... you can tune up your 205 to about 150Bhp, and get on... you start modifying some more in the course of years, ending with a 1600cc with a MI16-head, and then you're thinking "i want to race at lydden with the ERC...". you build a 206, transfer all mechanics from you rusty old 205, and you're having a good 1a car...

so you can actually get some guys starting at stockhatch, and slowly evolving into the higher classes, getting some new blood...

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by dcdesign

you build a 206, transfer all mechanics from you rusty old 205, and you're having a good 1a car....

If only it were so simple...

[dcdesign]

That's what Peter Vingerhoets did... he started with an old Peugeot 205, in our division 3 with the simple 1.9GTI, then he changed the head to the MI16 one... then he transfered that engine to a new 206 maxi body, added a dogbox, and finished second in D3... then he changed his engine block with a 1600cc one, and with some steady tuning he then became one of the frontrunners in dutch rallycross in 1a, and even had a go at the ERC, always getting A-finals... right now, the car is for sale at rallycross.com...

[stuart107]

Originally Posted by chunder

Haha, if you think you can build a modified that won't be last in every race for 6 grand you are dreaming!!

That might just cover the cost of the gearbox! Oh hang on,l maybe just the rebuilds!!

Well I must be dreaming then, having just finished 3rd in the MSA supermodified A final, as well as qualifying fastest in timed practice!!

My car was built for PROCAR2000 and is now supercharged and running in supermodified. Uses a standard engine, gearbox & shafts......all for just a smidge over £6K!!

People need to start getting ingenious with the way they spend their money!!

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by dcdesign

That's what Peter Vingerhoets did... he started with an old Peugeot 205, in our division 3 with the simple 1.9GTI, then he changed the head to the MI16 one... then he transfered that engine to a new 206 maxi body, added a dogbox, and finished second in D3... then he changed his engine block with a 1600cc one, and with some steady tuning he then became one of the frontrunners in dutch rallycross in 1a, and even had a go at the ERC, always getting A-finals... right now, the car is for sale at rallycross.com...

Yep, and the price is 27,000 Euros, so he must have spent far more than that on it. Not exactly budget, is it?

I can see what you're saying, but the car he started with and the one he's ended up with are completely different. 'A new Maxi body', 'added a dog box'; these are well beyond the means of the average competitor. There will always be a few parts (engine, box, shell) which are a massive step up, and then you have to run the car as well.

I can't see the FIA classes we have ever being affordable for the normal working person. They're great cars and there's some fantastic racing, but they're all extremely expensive.

[StockHatch782]

Originally Posted by stuart107

Well I must be dreaming then, having just finished 3rd in the MSA supermodified A final, as well as qualifying fastest in timed practice!!

My car was built for PROCAR2000 and is now supercharged and running in supermodified. Uses a standard engine, gearbox & shafts......all for just a smidge over £6K!!

People need to start getting ingenious with the way they spend their money!!

It's not just the car... it's the way you pedal it, Stuart!

[leonidas]

Also: I'm not sure why there is this obsession with having to run new/current model cars in clubman motorsport - that is one of the things which pushes up the cost for the ordinary hobby driver.

The British Rally Championship clubman support series (the BRC challenge) allows any car built after 1990 (and even allows older cars on appeal). If the premier rally series in the UK can do this, why is rallycross gone down the modern one make route for its main clubman support class? I'm guessing the average rallycrosser has a smaller budget than the BRC regulars!

Yes its nice to have modern cars for the TV - but we have to live in the real world.

[dcdesign]

Originally Posted by StockHatch782

Yep, and the price is 27,000 Euros, so he must have spent far more than that on it. Not exactly budget, is it?

I can see what you're saying, but the car he started with and the one he's ended up with are completely different. 'A new Maxi body', 'added a dog box'; these are well beyond the means of the average competitor. There will always be a few parts (engine, box, shell) which are a massive step up, and then you have to run the car as well.

I can't see the FIA classes we have ever being affordable for the normal working person. They're great cars and there's some fantastic racing, but they're all extremely expensive.

The maxi body is not a official body, it is just a 206-shell with polyester or carbon widebody panels (which is quite common in rallycross, imagine all 205 dimma's that are out there...). the dogbox is a must to score in 1a, just like extreme tuning to get past 200Bhp... but using the stock H-pattern is also possible, just like keeping it to around 170Bhp... It all depends on your time and your budget...

But, like i see it, in BRC, when you want to move up, you've got yourself a big investment for a whole new car, because with a 1600 GTI you wont be anywhere in SM...