Grand Am making its move, is it time for ALMS to make its move?

[6157]

Originally Posted by Purist

Trouble is, TWK, we only have your word to take for it. By itself, that's NOT solid enough to rely on, now is it? In the end, until we SEE something OFFICIAL, it's just bloody hearsay, and I'm getting tired of all the crap being thrown around.

Either let the cat out of the bag, assuming you have it, or quit talking like you're God, or like you have His direct line.

Trahsub was simply doing what he feels you're doing. He's just saying stuff; he wasn't making an outright assertion that it was propaganda, but all of this IS getting REALLY old. Of course, what he said has no substantiation, but then again, it LOOKS LIKE yours doesn't either. If I had to use an analogy, TWK, I'd say you're just acting like the big bully on the playground who's having himself a ball playing keep-away (with this memo at the moment), simply because he can.

In the interest of equal-time, the memo is legitimate. I haven't seen it, so I'm not going to blow a bunch of smoke up your ass but I have had friends tell me their team has received the memo. I suspect the same can be said of Tom, he's heard about it but does not have it in his possession as he claims.

As for the rest of Purist's post, I'm sure you'll be insulted and berated by Tom for having no connection to the sport and no idea about whats going on, which will basically confirm what Purist posted and we all know about Tom anyway.

[Fogelhund]

Tom has a copy of the memo. I have a copy of the memo.

It seems that the Moderators have some cleaning up to do.

[6157]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Tom has a copy of the memo. I have a copy of the memo.

It seems that the Moderators have some cleaning up to do.

I don't think they moderate this board like you moderate the ALMS board. In other words, when anyone dare question the oracle known as Tom Kjos they must be banished from the plain.

I'm sure if Tom told you biobutanol came from unicorns, you'd believe him.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by 6157

I don't think they moderate this board like you moderate the ALMS board. In other words, when anyone dare question the oracle known as Tom Kjos they must be banished from the plain.

I'm sure if Tom told you biobutanol came from unicorns, you'd believe him.

Bottom Line, most forums (including the ALMS and this one) have rules against blatant attacks or insults on other members. 6157/Inglorious, I'm not sure why the anger issues, this is just a sport. Have a beer, or whatever makes you happy, go outside, there is a whole wonderful world out there.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by 6157

You call writing slanderous rumors contributing to the sport? You call writing stories on how the sport is going down the tubes contributing? You do every thing in your power to call attention to every single negative aspect of the ALMS right now and you call that a contribution to what?

As to your second point, one can call it fact; whereas-


Main Entry: 1ru·mor
Pronunciation: \ˈrü-mər\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English rumour, from Anglo-French, from Latin rumor clamor, gossip; akin to Old English rēon to lament, Sanskrit rauti he roars
Date: 14th century

1 : talk or opinion widely disseminated with no discernible source
2 : a statement or report current without known authority for its truth
3 archaic : talk or report of a notable person or event

Main Entry: 2slander
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sclaundre, slaundre, from Anglo-French esclandre, alteration of escandle, from Late Latin scandalum stumbling block, offense — more at scandal
Date: 14th century

1 : the utterance of false charges or misrepresentations which defame and damage another's reputation
2 : a false and defamatory oral statement about a person.

Unless there is some one named IMSA or ALMS, tis not slander.

[arakis]

One of the reasons I love Ten-tenths, sports car board, is because no matter how heated the arguments get, people keep discusing the topc not the members.
So both off you lay off the personal attacks and thread chasing, because its getting annoying, I don't care who started it or who is more in the wrong, just lay off the personal crap!

[Tim Northcutt]

Clean it up, people or there will be a lot of posters taking vacations from this site.

As for TWK, he has numerous sources in both series and does his homework.

As opposed to being a cheerleader, he calls them as he sees them based on information he gets from those sources.

FWIW

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by Purist

However, Claus, I don't think Discovery is a channel on which people are going to be expecting to see race broadcasts, so they're not as likely to even look for it there.

Discovery's HD Theater is the US home for WRC, and they've been expanding to show more automotive and motorsports-related programming (Isle of Man TT, Star Mazda, Mustang Challenge). Whether it's appropriate or even possible for live sportscar racing is another discussion entirely, but Discovery's no stranger to motorsports.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Purist

However, Claus, I don't think Discovery is a channel on which people are going to be expecting to see race broadcasts, so they're not as likely to even look for it there. NatGeo, and the Science Channel are too far up the channel numbers to be worth going onto, because you'll have a heck of a time finding them, and rather few people have all those channels to begin with.

That's the job of the ALMS and IMSA. They would have the task of bring traditional sportscar fans over via advertising. Get them over, and then they already have the demographic that they need to go after. Besides, if the ALMS is going to spend time going after the 20,000-50,000 dollar demographic, it'll be wasted, because if they aren't already sportscar fans, then it's always going to be a hard pull.


As it is on Speed, you have a network who doesn't give a damn about them, to the point of them being on the same level as Monster Jam. They can't grow their fanbase, because the casual fan is already locked on NASCAR. Some of the F1 fans will gravitate towards it, but others will look at it and see no storylines, no character about it, and will be turned off, because Speed completely ignores that side. How hard is it to have a 30 minute show that takes a look at an ALMS team preparing for a race? I could see them getting that on the Science Channel or Discovery. Speed has shown that that will never be in the cards.

[fieldodreams79]

These are turbulent times in Sportscar racing and that brings out the strong feelings everywhere. It is very worrisome for fans of both series and racing fans, in general. The bickering and entrenching here is similar to the bickering and entrenching between the two series; both are detrimental to the overall concepts.

[HORNDAWG]

Hmm, I am put in mind of a word, recuse.






L.P.

[JAG]

Can I make a few points.

1. Why would Audi back GA with a customer GT3 car if they knew it could potentially bring down the ALMS. The ALMS hosts Sebring and PLM which are important races for Audi and their mult-million Euro P1 factory program.

2. Are IMSA and manufactuers going to make a go of running just Sebring, PLM and one or two other NA rounds. Would IMSA be interested in working on non NA rounds of the ILMC with the ACO seeing as they have run races at Silverstone and Nurburgring in years past.

3. GT3 is an FIA rule set which is run in many countries so running such cars does not automatically mean a GA/FIA tie-up, GT1 is the FIA's premier sportscar series. Likewise Jean Todt has visited many series and races including Le Mans.

4. Where is the money coming from for new DP's and GT3's seeing as I am told even minor ACO aero updates are difficult to finance for some NA team?

5. Assuming there is no NA future for ACO sportscars unless GA takes over Sebring and replaces PLM with a similar stature race won't fans be feeling short changed?

6. Why in the space of 12 months have some previously hardcore ALMS fans moved from praising the series to almost wishing it crashes and burns. That may not be the intention but that's my perception.

7. Is this just another example of politics in NA racing getting in the way of whats best for the sport. At a time when the Indy 500 and Daytona 24hrs have dropped off the international scene the ALMS has been a shining light and IMO brought more international interest to NA racing than anyone could have believed.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by JAG

6. Why in the space of 12 months have some previously hardcore ALMS fans moved from praising the series to almost wishing it crashes and burns. That may not be the intention but that's my perception.

There's a big difference between "wishing it crashes and burns" and observing that current management seems intent on crashing and burning.

Of course, those folks could sit on their hands and yes-man Atherton & Co. to death. It worked out so well for the ChampCar fans who did the same thing, after all...

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JAG

Can I make a few points.

1. Why would Audi back GA with a customer GT3 car if they knew it could potentially bring down the ALMS. The ALMS hosts Sebring and PLM which are important races for Audi and their mult-million Euro P1 factory program.

My understanding was that is was just Zak Brown going to GARRC and them looking into getting the R8 homlogated. I didn't know Audi was involved.

2. Are IMSA and manufactuers going to make a go of running just Sebring, PLM and one or two other NA rounds. Would IMSA be interested in working on non NA rounds of the ILMC with the ACO seeing as they have run races at Silverstone and Nurburgring in years past.

Are you talking about the teams or IMSA working with the likes of Audi and Peugeot to get them to run more rounds?

3. GT3 is an FIA rule set which is run in many countries so running such cars does not automatically mean a GA/FIA tie-up, GT1 is the FIA's premier sportscar series. Likewise Jean Todt has visited many series and races including Le Mans.

Grand Am will never relinquish full governance to the FIA, but they seem to be open to their rule set.

4. Where is the money coming from for new DP's and GT3's seeing as I am told even minor ACO aero updates are difficult to finance for some NA team?

Well, there's a difference between the comparatively well sponsored and more viewed Grand Am teams that have been working with less costly equipment, and the teams in the ALMS. But that is still an interesting question. I can take a guess on who it isn't coming from.

5. Assuming there is no NA future for ACO sportscars unless GA takes over Sebring and replaces PLM with a similar stature race won't fans be feeling short changed?

Maybe. I'd definitely hate to lose those two spectacles, but then again, we'd have GT3, with some sort of Super GT/DTM hybrid to go along with it. Ultimately, I'd be fine with that, but it would still be a shame that those two races would go, as it most likely would mean the end of those two facilities. Unless, as you said, Grand Am takes over.

6. Why in the space of 12 months have some previously hardcore ALMS fans moved from praising the series to almost wishing it crashes and burns. That may not be the intention but that's my perception.

I can't answer for everyone, but it seems as if the ALMS and IMSA have been spoiled by Audi and Peugeots involvement, as well as the GT2 battles, and have become less open to new ideas(partially because they have to follow a "formula" of sorts). Whereas, Grand Am doesn't have the same philosophy, which opens them up to more possiblities. They seem to be moving progressively.

7. Is this just another example of politics in NA racing getting in the way of whats best for the sport. At a time when the Indy 500 and Daytona 24hrs have dropped off the international scene the ALMS has been a shining light and IMO brought more international interest to NA racing than anyone could have believed.

I still the the 500 is much, much more important in the racing world. But the ALMS has become more of a engineering spectacle.

[mountainstar]

I'll reserve judgment until grand am actually decides what they are doing for sure.

I always liked the DTM, not as much in recent years, compared to the old days. Whether that would fly over here in the USA, it's a gamble that could either be really big or tank big time. Obviously it would require a lot of manufacturer participation as well, so that's another gamble.

What is clear is the silly DP class is not sustainable nor has any public interest.

I think the ALMS would do fine if it stopped farking with the rules all the time and bothered to streamline the classes among other things. It certainly has it's place and companies like Ferrari and Porsche are not going to want their product racing against toyota, nissan or gm in a DTM style series.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by extramundane

There's a big difference between "wishing it crashes and burns" and observing that current management seems intent on crashing and burning.

Of course, those folks could sit on their hands and yes-man Atherton & Co. to death. It worked out so well for the ChampCar fans who did the same thing, after all...

Exactly. That, to me, is what it feels like. Keep in mind, I only came into the open wheel war at it's dying embers, so I might be a bit out of touch. But like Champ Car, ALMS has (or at least had) the better product, but inability (unwillingness?) to adapt, and higher costs forced their demise. And just like CC, who as late as 2006 could have dug themselves out, the ALMS still has a chance to do so if they put their egos aside.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'll reserve judgment until grand am actually decides what they are doing for sure.

I always liked the DTM, not as much in recent years, compared to the old days. Whether that would fly over here in the USA, it's a gamble that could either be really big or tank big time. Obviously it would require a lot of manufacturer participation as well, so that's another gamble.

What is clear is the silly DP class is not sustainable nor has any public interest.

I think the ALMS would do fine if it stopped farking with the rules all the time and bothered to streamline the classes among other things. It certainly has it's place and companies like Ferrari and Porsche are not going to want their product racing against toyota, nissan or gm in a DTM style series.

They do in Super GT. Or are you saying they'd take away factory support?

[JAG]

There's been a distinct change in tone recently and it isn't even subtle.

Would I also be wrong to suggest there has been a concerted effort to pour s*** on everything the ACO is doing from running series to regulations. Not just heated debate, you'd actually think the ACO doen't know the first thing about sportscar racing (cue someone saying they don't).

From the same sources I read about Peugeot pulling out here, Audi there, programs being curtailed, 2011 P2 in a state of disarray but it bears no resemblance to the news I read from the same sources for the past decade and more.

The ALMS has it's problems, serious ones.

But to go from that to some of the speculative pieces we've been reading is some stretch.

Are you talking about the teams or IMSA working with the likes of Audi and Peugeot to get them to run more rounds?

IMSA taking on an organisational/promotional role not only for NA ILMC rounds but elsewhere should the ALMS itself be cut down to just three or four major events.

Of course with just three or four ALMS rounds all could count for the ILMC.

They do in Super GT. Or are you saying they'd take away factory support?

Super GT has three major GT500 manufactuers who run the series. The GT300 class are privateers.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JAG

There's been a distinct change in tone recently and it isn't even subtle.

Would I also be wrong to suggest there has been a concerted effort to pour s*** on everything the ACO is doing from running series to regulations. Not just heated debate, you'd actually think the ACO doen't know the first thing about sportscar racing (cue someone saying they don't).

From the same sources I read about Peugeot pulling out here, Audi there, programs being curtailed, 2011 P2 in a state of disarray but it bears no resemblance to the news I read from the same sources for the past decade and more.

The ALMS has it's problems, serious ones.

But to go from that to some of the speculative pieces we've been reading is some stretch.

My problem isn't with the ACO, it's with IMSA.

[extramundane]

Originally Posted by JAG

There's been a distinct change in tone recently and it isn't even subtle.

I suspect you'll find it's directly proportional to the velocity at which ALMS management seems to be getting things wrong.

Would I also be wrong to suggest there has been a concerted effort to pour s*** on everything the ACO is doing from running series to regulations.

My previous post applies here too. The main difference is that the ACO seems to be crashing and burning at an even quicker rate than ALMS management. The majority of the s*** being poured on the ACO is poured by the ACO themselves.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

There's been a distinct change in tone recently and it isn't even subtle.

Would I also be wrong to suggest there has been a concerted effort to pour s*** on everything the ACO is doing from running series to regulations. Not just heated debate, you'd actually think the ACO doen't know the first thing about sportscar racing (cue someone saying they don't).

They do not, at least in the US.
As much as I loath the France boys, they saw what was happening in the nineties and at least to a degree thought they could do better; they did not, but at least they did not have a sanction a thousand miles away put a ring in their nose and lead them around.
Detroit has driven road racing in the US, the IMSA should have made every effort when Chevy, Dodge and to a lessor degree Ford (Saleen) were all in it, to KEEP them in. They did not and instead were too busy kissing the ACO's buttocks so ended up with Audi and Peugeot diesels which are nothing to most US fans and minor, to non-existent, in US automobile marketing.

Again it was Porsche, the one European company that has been a major player in US road racing, for decades, coming in and at least for a year or so, halting the IMSA's free-fall.

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by extramundane

There's a big difference between "wishing it crashes and burns" and observing that current management seems intent on crashing and burning.

Of course, those folks could sit on their hands and yes-man Atherton & Co. to death. It worked out so well for the ChampCar fans who did the same thing, after all...

Give that man a cigar....

[dj4monie]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

They do not, at least in the US.
As much as I loath the France boys, they saw what was happening in the nineties and at least to a degree thought they could do better; they did not, but at least they did not have a sanction a thousand miles away put a ring in their nose and lead them around.
Detroit has driven road racing in the US, the IMSA should have made every effort when Chevy, Dodge and to a lessor degree Ford (Saleen) were all in it, to KEEP them in. They did not and instead were too busy kissing the ACO's buttocks so ended up with Audi and Peugeot diesels which are nothing to most US fans and minor, to non-existent, in US automobile marketing.

Again it was Porsche, the one European company that has been a major player in US road racing, for decades, coming in and at least for a year or so, halting the IMSA's free-fall.

Well like I said, HPD being American based and having to justify its expenses, they should have stuck with Porsche and Acura and told Audi to go jump if they didn't want to play on their terms.

Very simple.

Grand Am tried and failed, DPs look like they will drop to single digits, nobody finds those things interest or fast.

I will say this about IMSA pre-PSR/Andy Evans

Both GM, Ford, Dodge, Mazda and Toyota were deeply invested in GTO/GTU.

The only problem was this structure was not accepted by Europeans. Ratel revival of GT racing (not Prototype) racing sparked off a new investment by the European based companies.

I think we're in a window in time were the OEM's want to dictate what happens what happens with their marketing dollars and not the series. The ACO wants to hang onto an relic of the past with prototypes. I can assure you just like in 1995, if the ACO was forced to field nothing but GT cars, they would do it and fans honestly wouldn't mind one bit.

[k3ntegra]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

They do not, at least in the US.
As much as I loath the France boys, they saw what was happening in the nineties and at least to a degree thought they could do better; they did not, but at least they did not have a sanction a thousand miles away put a ring in their nose and lead them around.
Detroit has driven road racing in the US, the IMSA should have made every effort when Chevy, Dodge and to a lessor degree Ford (Saleen) were all in it, to KEEP them in. They did not and instead were too busy kissing the ACO's buttocks so ended up with Audi and Peugeot diesels which are nothing to most US fans and minor, to non-existent, in US automobile marketing.

Again it was Porsche, the one European company that has been a major player in US road racing, for decades, coming in and at least for a year or so, halting the IMSA's free-fall.

A very enlightening post indeed. One of the main reasons i think IMSA Camel GT lasted so long was that it didn't abide by the stupid "maximum fuel to use limit" that European C Prototypes had to put up with even in the 24 hours endurace races in the 1980s. Unfortunately ALMS was to dumb to recognize this and be favorable to diesels which aren't even mainstream to the american public.

When was the last time the ACO were favorable american manufacturer in top level racing? The Ford GT40? i was thinking of the Panoz GTR-1 but the qualifying lap times were nowhere near the Toyota GTONE/Mercedes CLK-GTR (both hacks imo, but i really like the GTONE though for it futuristic design and turbo monstrosity) according to racingsportscars.com. And let's not forget the ACO ruling in that Anthony Davidson/Peugeot aggression against Collardo & corvette in the 2010 24h le mans.

I despise the France family of nascar and Grand am, but at least they're able to stand up and not put up with FIA/ACO nonsense.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by dj4monie

....if the ACO was forced to field nothing but GT cars, they would do it and fans honestly wouldn't mind one bit.

I could be very rude indeed about the latter part of that comment, but I'll just say I disagree.