2011 Sebring Audi R-15's (thread currently closed)

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Gil Abobeleira

Anything to do with the Argentina-Chile-Argentina Rally?

In a way, yes:

http://translate.google.de/translate..._11010101.html

[chernaudi]

Pruett placed Audi of America in his fail category in his Speed Pass, Fail or Incomplete article for backing out on their funding at the last minute just as Audi Sport was to pick a partner.

And as I said, Marshall and Mike and their ilk might not know much based on their sources, but they know more than most of us do.

It seemed that AoA was willing to pay until they found out how much parent Audi AG would contribute. And we can't forget Dr. Ullrich's comments that Audi AG's policy is favoring their importers running semi-works private teams in the ALMS, LMS and possibly the ILMC and Le Mans in the near future.

I think that AoA wanted Audi Germany to kick in more money, and neither side budged and without a third party sponsor or a rich team owner, which they would've gotten if Penske came on board, but as a business man, Penske probably wouldn't spend more than he felt was neccessary.

That all aside, whatever changes that Audi have/had planned for the R15s at Sebring would obviously have ended up on the ALMS cars if that deal went through.

Of course, when one considers that Audi AG and AoA have both made record profits, between the two of them, it could be argued that $15 million or so would be a drop in the ocean.

So there's definitley some infighting there over who would pay for what that's killed the program, as AoA and Audi couldn't find a backer to cover that deficit.

But then again, if AoA was willing to sign off on a significant part of an Audi ALMS plan's funding, what spooked them out of it? TV deal, fears on ROI, worries over IMSA's rules package? I don't believe it was policy, as I don't think that AoA would let such plans be made public if they didn't intend to follow through.

Back on the R15, though, I propose this theory. If Audi were to run the R15's in the ALMS, they might have made a bigger move to get the wider tires stuff homologated, but then again, even in 2010 form, the R15 was much faster than most ALMS LMPs.

As I said, we won't know what, if anything, that Audi has planned until photos come out, but Audi has played the photoshop trick before (remember the Audi R18 windtunnel photo?).

And even at that, we'll have to wait. I wouldn't pass judgement on what's going on until perhaps Sebring.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Pruett placed Audi of America in his fail category in his Speed Pass, Fail or Incomplete article for backing out on their funding at the last minute just as Audi Sport was to pick a partner.

And as I said, Marshall and Mike and their ilk might not know much based on their sources, but they know more than most of us do.

It seemed that AoA was willing to pay until they found out how much parent Audi AG would contribute. And we can't forget Dr. Ullrich's comments that Audi AG's policy is favoring their importers running semi-works private teams in the ALMS, LMS and possibly the ILMC and Le Mans in the near future.

I think that AoA wanted Audi Germany to kick in more money, and neither side budged and without a third party sponsor or a rich team owner, which they would've gotten if Penske came on board, but as a business man, Penske probably wouldn't spend more than he felt was neccessary.

That all aside, whatever changes that Audi have/had planned for the R15s at Sebring would obviously have ended up on the ALMS cars if that deal went through.

Of course, when one considers that Audi AG and AoA have both made record profits, between the two of them, it could be argued that $15 million or so would be a drop in the ocean.

So there's definitley some infighting there over who would pay for what that's killed the program, as AoA and Audi couldn't find a backer to cover that deficit.

But then again, if AoA was willing to sign off on a significant part of an Audi ALMS plan's funding, what spooked them out of it? TV deal, fears on ROI, worries over IMSA's rules package? I don't believe it was policy, as I don't think that AoA would let such plans be made public if they didn't intend to follow through.

Back on the R15, though, I propose this theory. If Audi were to run the R15's in the ALMS, they might have made a bigger move to get the wider tires stuff homologated, but then again, even in 2010 form, the R15 was much faster than most ALMS LMPs.

As I said, we won't know what, if anything, that Audi has planned until photos come out, but Audi has played the photoshop trick before (remember the Audi R18 windtunnel photo?).

And even at that, we'll have to wait. I wouldn't pass judgement on what's going on until perhaps Sebring.

Are you a conspiracy theorist by night? I have seen more changes in lines by you through this thread than by Enge and Salo in Mid Ohio a few years ago.

[chernaudi]

Well, we can't judge because there are conflicting lines of though coming out of sources within Audi Sport, and it seems that Audi is more desperate than ever to muddy the waters.

It seems that they learned their lesson from the R15 by showing too much of it off too soon. But then again, why be fairly open about the R15 when it was new, then when it was revised, and now hardly a peep about it? I'd have to say that Audi has shared more about the R18 than the R15, which, after all, even if upgraded to wider front wheels and tires, is still in theory an obsolcescnt car.

I don't know what game Audi is playing here, but it's clear that Audi only wants us to know what they want us to.

But it's odd that we know more--or at least can form more accurate guesses--about the R18 and the 90x than an R15 that we'll likely see only once next year and will be retired shortly aftewards to muselums.

[Lola T70]

Game? Which game is that exactly? Focussing efforts on the new car and doing the minimum to the old one for one race?

I am pretty sure you are seeing things that are not there.

[Félix]

Speculation, speculation... Based on what? The only thing solid we have is probably ONE mention of Audi running "R15 plus plus" at Sebring in the R18 press release. Nothing else. We don't know what a ++ is. Because there is no way to know for sure, and looking at what the rules allow pretty much settles it anyway.

I come here to find out about news and latest developments. I wish they were not hidden under pages and pages of multiple paragraph speculation. In fact, this thread should just not exist. Or I could start one about the shape of the front winglets on the upcoming Aston Martin LMP. And about how much the Lotus LMP2 will look like the 908. But I don't have enough inspiration to write paragraphs about that... because there's pretty much nothing out there! (yeah I know, I should just learn how to ignore this stuff)

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It seems that they learned their lesson from the R15 by showing too much of it off too soon.

Really? That was their big mistake with the R15? How exactly? Peugeot didn't even once try to copy any of the R15s features so how did it hurt them to show it off too soon?

The R15's problem was that is was poorly raced before it arrived at Le Mans and they´re doing the exact same thing with the R18 again. I really fail to see how they have learned their lesson..

They should put all the race mileage possible on the car instead of wasting their time with a R15++. I bet Peugeot is happy to give them the Sebring win in exchange for the lessons learned with a brand new car during 12 hours of racing.

It seems to me that Audi is becoming paranoid and that's hurting their decision-making...not racing the R18 in Sebring is just a bad move.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Lola T70

I am pretty sure you are seeing things that are not there.

I'm completely with you on that one.

[TWK]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Pruett placed Audi of America in his fail category in his Speed Pass, Fail or Incomplete article for backing out on their funding at the last minute just as Audi Sport was to pick a partner.

And as I said, Marshall and Mike and their ilk might not know much based on their sources, but they know more than most of us do.

So, before the 2009 season is now "at the last minute?" The fact is that Audi NA has not funded an ALMS program since the 2008 season. I agree with Pruett's "fail," as a fan, at least, but it would have been more properly awarded two years earlier, when the decision was actually made.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It seemed that AoA was willing to pay until they found out how much parent Audi AG would contribute. And we can't forget Dr. Ullrich's comments that Audi AG's policy is favoring their importers running semi-works private teams in the ALMS, LMS and possibly the ILMC and Le Mans in the near future.

There is no indication I have ever seen that Audi NA ever agreed to resume funding the ALMS program. Dr. Ulrich's comment should have been your clue that there would be no racing unless others funded the racing. The point is that is not something new...it's long-standing policy.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I think that AoA wanted Audi Germany to kick in more money, and neither side budged and without a third party sponsor or a rich team owner, which they would've gotten if Penske came on board, but as a business man, Penske probably wouldn't spend more than he felt was neccessary.

Why would Audi AG (NOT "Audi Germany," that's a "country/region organization," like Audi NA), suddenly decide to "kick in" to support a racing program in in North America - or in Europe, for that matter, when they have not done so before. Long standing policy has been to have regional (including Audi UK a few years ago) fund the R8/R10 racing operations. AG's Audi Sport develops and staffs, the bills are paid by others, or they don't race.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

That all aside, whatever changes that Audi have/had planned for the R15s at Sebring would obviously have ended up on the ALMS cars if that deal went through.

They never planned any, so they had nothing to apply to "the ALMS cars."

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Of course, when one considers that Audi AG and AoA have both made record profits, between the two of them, it could be argued that $15 million or so would be a drop in the ocean.

A "drop" that Audi NA decided long ago was much better spent in other advertising and promotion. During its 2009 fiscal year, after the recession here had set in, Audi actually increased its total marketing budget - and none of it went to racing.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

So there's definitley some infighting there over who would pay for what that's killed the program, as AoA and Audi couldn't find a backer to cover that deficit.

No program to kill after the decision to end funding for racing at the end of the 2008 season.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

But then again, if AoA was willing to sign off on a significant part of an Audi ALMS plan's funding, what spooked them out of it? TV deal, fears on ROI, worries over IMSA's rules package? I don't believe it was policy, as I don't think that AoA would let such plans be made public if they didn't intend to follow through.

Since they were never "willing to sign off on a NA program, they weren't "spooked." It's pretty simple. They decided two years earlier the funds were better spent elsewhere, and when Audi Sport came hat-in-hand for 2011, they clearly didn't see anything different that would cause them to revise the decision they's already made. After increasing Super Bowl ads and other advertising and promotin in 2009 and 2010, they were convinced the money is better spent there.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Back on the R15, though, I propose this theory. If Audi were to run the R15's in the ALMS, they might have made a bigger move to get the wider tires stuff homologated, but then again, even in 2010 form, the R15 was much faster than most ALMS LMPs.

As I said, we won't know what, if anything, that Audi has planned until photos come out, but Audi has played the photoshop trick before (remember the Audi R18 windtunnel photo?).

And even at that, we'll have to wait. I wouldn't pass judgement on what's going on until perhaps Sebring.

Your "theory" rests on not one single fact. Revisions to the R15 are simply illegal in 2011, so there won't be any, and there was never a 2011 ALMS Audi racing program. Nothing beyond Audi Sport's hope that something might be worked out. All Ulrich ever said that I saw was that it would be more likely to get an agreement for the ALMS than for the LMS because he'd only need a decision from one division (NA), while in Europe, he'd need support from many "national" divisions. Duh! So, true, but it was perfectly clear he had nothing in hand.

Sorry... where's that "dead horse thingy?"

[Victor_RO]

Does this leave the single point of contention about the R15 at Sebring to be the cars' livery? The Audi factory team has never kept the same exact livery for two consecutive years... at least since they've gone to the diesel side of things. I'm really curious to see all the manufacturers' 2011 "war paint".

[Dani Filth]

Originally Posted by TWK

Sorry... where's that "dead horse thingy?"

here it is ..

[chernaudi]

Why would Audi's ALMS plans have gotten as far as they did if Audi didn't expect AoA to at least pay their "share" of the deal?

I still think that for whatever reason (obviously money related) that AoA got cold feet just as Audi Sport was ready to chose a partner team (lack of an additonal backer or a sponsorship package to minimize AoA's direct funding).

As for the R15, Audi has obvously made some changes to it, though the extent isn't known beyond rules complicance unless the "++" deal is just a euphinism--Audi wouldn't call the car the "+-" would they? If they were to do that, why not just call it the R15, which Audi thankfully has done since LM.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Félix

In fact, this thread should just not exist.

I agree, it should be killed deader than a dead thing.

[Tim the Grey]

Come off it Chernaudi...
R15, then R15+, now it's R15++. Because it's an R15+, with smaller restrictors, and less fuel...

Simples. (How do I make that Meerkat noise?)

[chernaudi]

As I said, why not drop any of the "plus" monikers and just call it by it's real name. Audi didn't do that crap when they made changes to the R8 or the R10.

If Audi didn't change anything, why not just call it the R15 and get it over with?

It's either that Audi changed something that they don't want us to know about, or they changed nothing and they don't want us to know that. Or they're just jerking us around because of these conflicting stories both have origins at Audi Sport HQ.

But I still find it odd that even it was to run wider tires, why would Audi hide that? We know that they've tested the R15 in that form before, and it's not a new concept.

Regardless or the changes (or lack there of), I'm ready to hear complaints that it'll be ugly and that the paint scheme is disorienting enough to make one deathly ill.

And what if Audi decided to add the "shark fin" to it?

[Félix]

The fin is not a performance advantage and the closed R18 wouldnt benefit from experimentation on the open R15.

The DTM A4 has gone through various iterations with a + In the internal name and no one got overly confused. And they've always been pretty hard to tell apart from year to year.

Audi might be able to use wider fronts now that they have a proper compound and since they have tested it before and might have shown the ACO the parts... but we will know when Audi or an insider in the know will tell us; writing pages and pages of hypothetical speculation won't make "the truth" come out any faster. We can only have varying opinions on how likely the various possibilities are, and debating that is starting to feel old and shouldnt take pages or a dedicated thread because in the end it's pretty much a detail.

[Lola T70]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It's either that Audi changed something that they don't want us to know about, or they changed nothing and they don't want us to know that. Or they're just jerking us around because of these conflicting stories both have origins at Audi Sport HQ.

I am very confused, which sources and origins at Audi Sport HQ are you talking about that are apparently giving out false information to destabilise Peugeot.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

As I said, why not drop any of the "plus" monikers and just call it by it's real name. Audi didn't do that crap when they made changes to the R8 or the R10.

If Audi didn't change anything, why not just call it the R15 and get it over with?

It's either that Audi changed something that they don't want us to know about, or they changed nothing and they don't want us to know that. Or they're just jerking us around because of these conflicting stories both have origins at Audi Sport HQ.

But I still find it odd that even it was to run wider tires, why would Audi hide that? We know that they've tested the R15 in that form before, and it's not a new concept.

Regardless or the changes (or lack there of), I'm ready to hear complaints that it'll be ugly and that the paint scheme is disorienting enough to make one deathly ill.

And what if Audi decided to add the "shark fin" to it?

The ACO stated NO CHANGES to 2010 rules cars. So either they have completely remade it, rehomologated it into a 2011 rules car, or the rest is pure fantasy. Why would they completely rebuild the R15, for one race?

[chernaudi]

Only advantage that Audi would have by running the R15 with the wider fronts is to test them in race conditions without running the R18, and maybe confirming that the R15 should've run those tires from the beginning.

But then again, who's to say that Audi doesn't already have plenty of info between R15 testing and R18 testing? They've only have to try it in a race.

But as Felix wrote, we can debate this, but until Audi runs the cars, we won't know for sure, especially since one source from Audi said that the R15s will run wider fronts at Sebring (Marshall's source), and another says that at best it's unlikely (Mike's source).

[Mike_Wooshy]

Mods could we close the thread please ? its become a terrible waste of space and Im sure the 10/10ths mods would appreciate not wasting any more space on servers for unnecessary conversations .....

[Aysedasi]

Done. It can be reopened should anyone persuade us that it serves a useful purpose.