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Old 3 Feb 2020, 06:56 (Ref:3955415)   #16
V8 Fireworks
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None of the manufacturers have any choice in introducing electric vehicles because the new fleet averaging for emissions gives them no choice in the matter and they have deadlines to meet. The punitive fines are huge and not to even be considered by any manufacturer so deadlines will be met.

A lot of people think the electrification of the new car fleet is a trendy thing thought up by the OEM's where in fact they are being faced with huge punishment by the legislators if they don't comply to targets set.
The fleet average required isn't zero. It's 95 g CO2/km which could easily be met by **exclusively** selling vehicles with an engine capacity of no more than 900cc. No hybrid needed, no EV needed.

It's the selfishness of some customers still wanting polluting large engines for their personal vehicles that causes the pickle and creates the "need" to balance out polluting vehicles with low and zero emissions ones.
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Old 3 Feb 2020, 09:10 (Ref:3955431)   #17
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The fleet average required isn't zero. It's 95 g CO2/km which could easily be met by **exclusively** selling vehicles with an engine capacity of no more than 900cc. No hybrid needed, no EV needed.

It's the selfishness of some customers still wanting polluting large engines for their personal vehicles that causes the pickle and creates the "need" to balance out polluting vehicles with low and zero emissions ones.
Of course it isn't zero it is a fleet AVERAGE. My point was not that at all it was that the legislators are forcing the OEM's to go to electric to reduce the fleet average and not as most people seem to think doing it of their own volition. If they don't do it the fines would break the biggest car maker in the world. Most of the world think VW are doing this to hide the diesel scandal but that is not so, they are literally being forced into it or commit business suicide.

How would you like to tow a caravan with 900cc?
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Old 3 Feb 2020, 11:21 (Ref:3955454)   #18
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How would you like to tow a caravan with 900cc?
Not to mention that up here most EV or Hybrids are not rated for towing so can't be used. Even if they could, what's the point in taking a caravan the maximum 40 odd miles range you're going to get whilst pulling and recharging said shed?

There are some jobs for which EVs are wonderful and some for which they are useless. The problem comes when you sometimes need the task for which it is useless and you don't happen to have the finance to buy an (expensive) EV and a capable vehicle for occasional use.

The other problem is that EVs come in three types
1) Very expensive
2) Useless and/or awful
3) Both of the above.
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Old 3 Feb 2020, 13:34 (Ref:3955475)   #19
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Less caravans on the road is a good thing.
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Old 4 Feb 2020, 08:59 (Ref:3955605)   #20
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The other problem is that EVs come in three types
1) Very expensive
2) Useless and/or awful
3) Both of the above.
Not true and you know it, I take it that BEV's are not to your liking? Me, I don't know as I have never driven one but for sure their future in Oz is way more complicated than in Europe and simply won't work in some parts of the country at all. In the populated regions it will be no different to Europe but in the bush simply have no future at all which raises a lot of questions on what will happen when ICE vehicles with low volumes are all we can buy and become crazy expensive because of it.
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Old 5 Feb 2020, 06:41 (Ref:3955793)   #21
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There are some jobs for which EVs are wonderful and some for which they are useless. The problem comes when you sometimes need the task for which it is useless and you don't happen to have the finance to buy an (expensive) EV and a capable vehicle for occasional use.


You do what I do. You rent. e.g. I don't have a camper, if I needed one to go racing I'd rent it.

The lifestyle model of car ownership is going to have to change. I foresee small, lightweight cars on the drive for daily use with the workhorses being owned by the likes of Hertz.

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Old 7 Feb 2020, 12:33 (Ref:3956254)   #22
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Not true and you know it, I take it that BEV's are not to your liking?
Not at all, we actively looked at them before settling on a hybrid.

Most are mega expensive. Teslas, Jaguars, etc. Some are brilliant, some are still fairly poor.
BME i8 or VWs are ridiculous prices. For something the size of our Hybrid Toyota there's at least a 2/3rds premium. Evan a BASIC Nissan Leaf is another 8k and it's horrible.
Things which are affordable are terrible - Renault Twizzy's. There's nothing on the market which we could consider that's anywhere near close to affordable for someone on a little over average salaries. Second hand is questionable for longevity, given we tend to keep our cars for 10 years or thereabouts and all suggestions is current battery technology won't last that long.

In short, for your normal person-about-town the prices currently are unsustainable, and if you want to use it for anything out of town, there are other difficulties. I couldn't, for instance, use anything to go to Silverstone for a weekend. I can't tow a caravan and get there and back, and I can't get there and back twice and have time to charge it, so even if one car is electric, I still need something which isn't for the other - and since that needs to be a towcar then I'm faced with both being more expensive.
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Old 9 Feb 2020, 11:36 (Ref:3956564)   #23
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The other problem is that EVs come in three types
1) Very expensive
2) Useless and/or awful
3) Both of the above.
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Not true and you know it, I take it that BEV's are not to your liking?
What do you mean "not true"?

An average economy car EV like a Nissan Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq or Honda e is about twice as expensive as the equivalent Nissan Pulsar, Hyundai i30 or Honda Jazz. If that isn't "very expensive" than what is!?

Given we are on a motor racing forum for car enthusiasts, I can very much see how a Renault-Nissan enthusiast who likes Megane RS Trophy style fun-to-drive cars would consider the equally priced Nissan Leaf to be both awful and expensive.

All the things the car enthusiast likes such as a snappy manual gearbox, sport bucket seats, sporty styling with widened wheel arches, a rorty exhaust noise, feelsome steering and precise handling are missing in the Nissan Leaf, hence it's "awful" (in terms of driving enjoyment and style), while the price being expensive ($50k/30k GBP for a small hatchback) is self-evident.

Compare the pair:



These cars are about the same price! Surely you can see why some people would consider the Leaf to be both 'awful' (they would probably say the combustion engine 1.8L CVT Nissan Pulsar economy car is also awful for that matter -- same lack of style, same lack of driving fun etc) but crucially the worst sin is that the Leaf is far too expensive for an economy car.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 9 Feb 2020 at 11:52.
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Old 10 Feb 2020, 08:19 (Ref:3956714)   #24
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
What do you mean "not true"?

An average economy car EV like a Nissan Leaf, Hyundai Ioniq or Honda e is about twice as expensive as the equivalent Nissan Pulsar, Hyundai i30 or Honda Jazz. If that isn't "very expensive" than what is!?

Given we are on a motor racing forum for car enthusiasts, I can very much see how a Renault-Nissan enthusiast who likes Megane RS Trophy style fun-to-drive cars would consider the equally priced Nissan Leaf to be both awful and expensive.

All the things the car enthusiast likes such as a snappy manual gearbox, sport bucket seats, sporty styling with widened wheel arches, a rorty exhaust noise, feelsome steering and precise handling are missing in the Nissan Leaf, hence it's "awful" (in terms of driving enjoyment and style), while the price being expensive ($50k/30k GBP for a small hatchback) is self-evident.

Compare the pair:



These cars are about the same price! Surely you can see why some people would consider the Leaf to be both 'awful' (they would probably say the combustion engine 1.8L CVT Nissan Pulsar economy car is also awful for that matter -- same lack of style, same lack of driving fun etc) but crucially the worst sin is that the Leaf is far too expensive for an economy car.
The enthusiast as you and I know it is on a winner, huge torque off the line, lay rubber anywhere etc and about the same price as a European performance sedan which the BEV will blow the doors off. The low end of the commuter market is a bit expensive up front but the running costs are just about zero compared to an IC car, no clutch jobs, no brake rebuilds, no servicing costs such as oil changes etc.
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Old 10 Feb 2020, 08:34 (Ref:3956717)   #25
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All the things the car enthusiast likes such as a snappy manual gearbox, sport bucket seats, sporty styling with widened wheel arches, a rorty exhaust noise, feelsome steering and precise handling are missing in the Nissan Leaf,
Snappy manual gearbox - I'd prefer a paddle, or sequential.
Sport bucket seats - style over substance in a lot of cars, and could be added to any vehicle.
Sporty styling with widened wheel arches - as with bucket seats.
A rorty exhaust noise - becomes a monotonous drone that induces headaches on commutes.
Feelsome steering and precise handling - are you sure they are missing in an EV?

What you describe as appealing to a car enthusiast sounds more like the type of car that appeals to some motor-sport enthusiasts. The features are more suited to a track than an urban environment, and basically suggest a car that is styled to appeal to the boy-racer fraternity as opposed to having any real practicality.
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Old 10 Feb 2020, 12:21 (Ref:3956749)   #26
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Backagain has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
The low end of the commuter market is a bit expensive up front but the running costs are just about zero compared to an IC car, no clutch jobs, no brake rebuilds, no servicing costs such as oil changes etc.[/QUOTE]

Just a fresh set of batteries roughly after 6-8 years costing as much as half the original purchase price plus cost of disposing of the old batteries (we have to pay to dispose of old tyres already). Imagine the resale value of a 5 year old electric car, you'd have to pay someone to take it away and dispose of it.
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Old 10 Feb 2020, 14:05 (Ref:3956761)   #27
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Just a fresh set of batteries roughly after 6-8 years costing as much as half the original purchase price plus cost of disposing of the old batteries (we have to pay to dispose of old tyres already). Imagine the resale value of a 5 year old electric car, you'd have to pay someone to take it away and dispose of it.

After 6yrs of use, the average battery in an EV has degraded by 10%, with the Leaf (the example being used in this thread) degrading by about 20%.

Still perfectly fine for daily use.
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Old 11 Feb 2020, 08:23 (Ref:3956917)   #28
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The low end of the commuter market is a bit expensive up front but the running costs are just about zero compared to an IC car, no clutch jobs, no brake rebuilds, no servicing costs such as oil changes etc.
Just a fresh set of batteries roughly after 6-8 years costing as much as half the original purchase price plus cost of disposing of the old batteries (we have to pay to dispose of old tyres already). Imagine the resale value of a 5 year old electric car, you'd have to pay someone to take it away and dispose of it.[/QUOTE]

A new motor
A new clutch
Numerous brake replacements
Servicing of all the oily bits, filters etc.
Gearboxes that go bang, just ask any Mazda owner, I see it from the dealer end not the owner end.
Radiators and inter coolers that leak
Turbos that blow up
Exhausts that need replacing

Etc Etc.
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