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Old 5 Mar 2020, 00:18 (Ref:3961656)   #31
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Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
Umm, no. There is ZERO chance it was straight illegal. Even the FIA couldn't risk that coming out and it would. There is no chance it was directly contravening any rules or the punishment would have been strong. If no part was illegal but the combination made a possibly illegal action then the FIA would have to prove it actually did. Without that proof they couldn't afford challenging teams with deep legal pockets. And releasing why they settled with Ferrari would likely release what they were doing. And the FIA wants no part of the info getting out to deal with new systems doing the same thing
Sounds like the old Benetton Option 13 scam from many moons ago,(1994?) where IIRC the launch control software was there but 'never used'. (Not to my recollection your honour!)
https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/be...lease/1652202/
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 00:38 (Ref:3961658)   #32
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I don’t think the Benetton had TC in 1994 because Verstappen would have been better if that was the case.
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 02:48 (Ref:3961678)   #33
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Ferrari & the FIA can thank their lucky stars that the Corona virus has distracted a lot of attention away from the teams complaints. Assertions of who did what to what what bits of the PU are nothing but hot air as no one outside of the two organisations knows. That something happened is beyond question but no specific assertions can be made, the popular one being the fuel flow rate. A few months before it was the twin batteries but that died swiftly.
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 06:16 (Ref:3961688)   #34
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
if it was to be protested, would Merc have to make available the technical details about their system to the other teams? rather wouldn't those details come out in the course of the investigation?

presumably the FIA has this info already and have already deemed it legal for this year (as they have said a few times now) so what would be the point of protesting unless teams are using this process to also glean details about what the other teams are up to/what loopholes the other team has found out?

i ask only to point out the inherent secrecy that exists between the teams and the FIA in all matters and these concerns about transparency need not be about someone cheating. they could also be about one team trying to increase their knowledge base.

imo a private settlement isn't proof in and of itself that Ferrari cheated vs just exploited a loophole.

all good though as someone will just poach the other's employee and will get the data they need.
Some have suggested that DAS could be a breach of Parc Ferme regs as the suspension settings have been changed from when the car left the pit lane, possibly that could be tested in a protest by other teams. Apparently Ferrari had evaluated a form of DAS and discounted it as they believed it would not be allowed...

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Old 5 Mar 2020, 06:17 (Ref:3961689)   #35
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
I don’t think the Benetton had TC in 1994 because Verstappen would have been better if that was the case.
Only Schumachers Benetton had TC or he was the only of the drivers who was told how to engage it, just ask Jos, JJ Lehto or Johnny Herbert

and it was Senna that also had said that Schumachers Benetton sounded different from the second car(Jos or JJ) and was convinced Schumachers car had TC

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2011...as-he-sees-it/

Last edited by steve nielsen; 5 Mar 2020 at 06:32.
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 06:22 (Ref:3961690)   #36
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Originally Posted by Kempi View Post
And you of course have evidence for that.
The fact that Ferrari suddenly dropped back in performance after the FIA technical directive says enough.
And the question from Red Bull that lead to that technical directive was about fuel flow

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...rrari-intrigue


Like I said: that's why there are 2 fuel flow meters now
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 07:15 (Ref:3961694)   #37
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Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
Some have suggested that DAS could be a breach of Parc Ferme regs as the suspension settings have been changed from when the car left the pit lane, possibly that could be tested in a protest by other teams. Apparently Ferrari had evaluated a form of DAS and discounted it as they believed it would not be allowed...

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It's a point of view but where does that leave the wheels, pedals and internal parts of the engine and gearbox? Silly I know but where does it end?
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 14:06 (Ref:3961755)   #38
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The latest FIA press releases on matter:

https://www.fia.com/news/fia-stateme...ormula-1-teams

The FIA has conducted detailed technical analysis on the Scuderia Ferrari Power Unit as it is entitled to do for any competitor in the FIA Formula One World Championship.

The extensive and thorough investigations undertaken during the 2019 season raised suspicions that the Scuderia Ferrari PU could be considered as not operating within the limits of the FIA regulations at all times. The Scuderia Ferrari firmly opposed the suspicions and reiterated that its PU always operated in compliance with the regulations.The FIA was not fully satisfied but decided that further action would not necessarily result in a conclusive case due to the complexity of the matter and the material impossibility to provide the unequivocal evidence of a breach.

To avoid the negative consequences that a long litigation would entail especially in light of the uncertainty of the outcome of such litigations and in the best interest of the Championship and of its stakeholders, the FIA, in compliance with Article 4 (ii) of its Judicial and Disciplinary Rules (JDR), decided to enter into an effective and dissuasive settlement agreement with Ferrari to terminate the proceedings.

This type of agreement is a legal tool recognised as an essential component of any disciplinary system and is used by many public authorities and other sport federations in the handling of disputes.

The confidentiality of the terms of the settlement agreement is provided for by Article 4 (vi) of the JDR.

The FIA will take all necessary action to protect the sport and its role and reputation as regulator of the FIA Formula One World Championship.


i suppose either side of this debate can now use this release to justify their position on the issue.
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 15:51 (Ref:3961763)   #39
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Basically FIA put their ham sandwich lunch in the refrigerator at work. Later in the day, their food was gone. Mysteriously, the lunchbox was still securely locked, but Ferrari's breath smelled suspiciously like ham and some wax paper that looked just like what had been used to wrap the sandwich was found in Ferrari's waste basket. While everyone in the office looked suspiciously at Ferrari, Ferrari said they know nothing about the missing ham sandwich (and then promptly went and brushed their teeth).

FIA decided they didn't have the time or money to pursue it any further as Ferrari has worked in the office a really long time and is a favorite of the owner of the business. So FIA just put an extra lock on their lunchbox and hoped for the best. So far it seems to be working.

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Old 5 Mar 2020, 16:02 (Ref:3961765)   #40
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I thought the teams had to prove their cars was legal at all times during an event.

It is therefore not up to the FIA to prove it illegal, so if Ferrari cannot prove beyond all reasonable doubt they were fully compliant then they should of been excluded from that event.

It goes to show how close the Todt led FIA and Ferrari are in reality and that the poacher cannot become the gamekeeper.
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 16:03 (Ref:3961766)   #41
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Basically FIA put their ham sandwich lunch in the refrigerator at work. Later in the day, their food was gone. Mysteriously, the lunchbox was still securely locked, but Ferrari's breath smelled suspiciously like ham and some wax paper that looked just like what had been used to wrap the sandwich was found in Ferrari's waste basket. While everyone in the office looked suspiciously at Ferrari, Ferrari said they know nothing about the missing ham sandwich (and then promptly went and brushed their teeth).

FIA decided they didn't have the time or money to pursue it any further as Ferrari has worked in the office a really long time and is a favorite of the owner of the business. So FIA just put an extra lock on their lunchbox and hoped for the best. So far it seems to be working.

Richard
Great analogy!
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 18:26 (Ref:3961795)   #42
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Basically FIA put their ham sandwich lunch in the refrigerator at work. Later in the day, their food was gone. Mysteriously, the lunchbox was still securely locked, but Ferrari's breath smelled suspiciously like ham and some wax paper that looked just like what had been used to wrap the sandwich was found in Ferrari's waste basket. While everyone in the office looked suspiciously at Ferrari, Ferrari said they know nothing about the missing ham sandwich (and then promptly went and brushed their teeth).

FIA decided they didn't have the time or money to pursue it any further as Ferrari has worked in the office a really long time and is a favorite of the owner of the business. So FIA just put an extra lock on their lunchbox and hoped for the best. So far it seems to be working.

Richard
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 20:26 (Ref:3961814)   #43
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Originally Posted by steve nielsen View Post
The fact that Ferrari suddenly dropped back in performance after the FIA technical directive says enough.
And the question from Red Bull that lead to that technical directive was about fuel flow

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...rrari-intrigue


Like I said: that's why there are 2 fuel flow meters now
You know what evidence is:

[]yes
[]no
[]maybe.

Tick the appropriate box. There are too many possible reasons for a reduced straightline speed for these signs to be considered sufficient evidence in a court.
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 21:29 (Ref:3961818)   #44
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You know what evidence is:

[]yes
[]no
[]maybe.

Tick the appropriate box. There are too many possible reasons for a reduced straightline speed for these signs to be considered sufficient evidence in a court.
I'm not only talking about straightline speed

the fact is in the 6 races after the summer break Ferrari scored 6 poles, 3 wins, 3 2nd places and a 3rd, in the 3 races after the technical directive Ferrari only scored 1 3rd place and no more poles

The FIA probably has evidence but tries to cover it up because otherwise they would have to strip Ferrari of their poles, points and wins
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Old 5 Mar 2020, 22:29 (Ref:3961828)   #45
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Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
Some have suggested that DAS could be a breach of Parc Ferme regs as the suspension settings have been changed from when the car left the pit lane, possibly that could be tested in a protest by other teams. Apparently Ferrari had evaluated a form of DAS and discounted it as they believed it would not be allowed...

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One big mistake there, it is the steering geometry settings, nothing to do with the suspension. Why commentators keep mixing up the two I do not know.
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