[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

Nice interview with Anthony Davidson on Evo.

I like this part

Plus, in one race alone we got to test every single type of tyre that Michelin has available to us.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Simmi

"What's that? Oh you wanted a full-scale third car..."

Originally Posted by Maelochs

LoL.

Yes, we are bringing a third car to Le Mans---hey, careful with that suitcase!

I don't know, those miniatures can cost tens of dollars and I doubt TMG has budget for such luxury, surely that model is on loan from fan or something...

[TF110]

Whats really funny is theyre actually giving them away- http://ms.toyota.co.jp/jp/wec/specia...ucer-0202.html

Theres a Gran Turismo 6 booth contest to beat Kazuki Nakajima's lap time on the game using the TS030. Those that beat his time receive a 1:18 model of last year's TS030.

[Simmi]

A bit more info on the driver situation for '15 via Sportscar365:

***Toyota Racing’s Pascal Vasselon revealed they expect to announce their 2015 driver lineup shortly before the next round in Shanghai. He stressed the driver situation is “under control” despite rumors of at least one of its current pilots potentially headed to Nissan.

***Vasselon confirmed that Nicolas Lapierre, who is absent this weekend due to personal reasons, has been given a contract proposal for 2015. He said it’s unclear if Lapierre will return for Shanghai. Mike Conway, who made his race debut at COTA, will be in the No. 7 car at Bahrain, subbing again for Kazuki Nakajima. Vasselon said his future with the team will be decided soon.

Lapierre situation continues to confuse. Hopefully everything is okay with Nico.

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/f...rday-notebook/

[Japanese Samurai]

Toyota LM24 manga ”Tiger never sleeps"

[Simmi]

Toyota couldn't have done anything more in front of their top brass this weekend to convince them to release more funding. If they can go on to nail some championships that will be another positive step, but the decision really needs making now for 2015.

[vincegail]

The top Brass could also say that two cars did the job pretty well, so why the need for a third?

(hope I'm wrong here)

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by vincegail

The top Brass could also say that two cars did the job pretty well, so why the need for a third?

(hope I'm wrong here)

Only some ignorant CEO with evil mustache and bottle of french wine in hand would say something like that when it's obvious that success in 6 hour races cannot be compared to 24 hour race where opposition also grows by 33%

I doubt today changed much, didn't last year nor year before that

[vincegail]

The opposition grows with 50%, so even worse for Toyota.

[Deleted]

In fact the actual chance for non-Toyota to win Le Mans next year in terms of entry figures is 78-82% if they keep just the two cars.

Toyota entries against other factories
2012 - 33% (2 vs 4)
2013 - 40% (2 vs 3)
2014 - 28% (2 vs 5)
2015 - 18-22% (2 vs 7 / 2 vs 8 / 2 vs 9)

[Gingers4Justice]

What are Toyota's plans next year regarding the car they're actually racing? Everyone is agreed that the TS040 is up for a big upgrade and there is even talk of a new car altogether...

My question is - why? That car is clearly the best of the lot, and comfortably so. Bad luck has been the only thing stopping it from dominating every race so far - although, you could argue (and I do) that you make your own luck in this sport.

Audi and Porsche are going to have to make massive gains with their cars to touch the current TS040 - why not just concentrate on the finer details on what is clearly the best all-round package of the three?

Do TMG need to waste money on heavily developing the best car? Or could they not just concentrate on testing as much as Porsche and Audi do, and spend the rest on entering a third TS040 next year? Because with three of those, I'd put my student loan on them winning Le Mans next year, no matter what the other three bring to the table.

Audi and Porsche are due some big changes and they're going to have to learn a lot of things in racing conditions. Toyota could next year have the luxury of racing an excellent car they already know, if they really want it.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

What are Toyota's plans next year regarding the car they're actually racing? Everyone is agreed that the TS040 is up for a big upgrade and there is even talk of a new car altogether...

My question is - why? That car is clearly the best of the lot, and comfortably so. Bad luck has been the only thing stopping it from dominating every race so far - although, you could argue (and I do) that you make your own luck in this sport.

Audi and Porsche are going to have to make massive gains with their cars to touch the current TS040 - why not just concentrate on the finer details on what is clearly the best all-round package of the three?

Do TMG need to waste money on heavily developing the best car? Or could they not just concentrate on testing as much as Porsche and Audi do, and spend the rest on entering a third TS040 next year? Because with three of those, I'd put my student loan on them winning Le Mans next year, no matter what the other three bring to the table.

Audi and Porsche are due some big changes and they're going to have to learn a lot of things in racing conditions. Toyota could next year have the luxury of racing an excellent car they already know, if they really want it.

You mention the reason yourself, why they have to develop a heavy upgrade or a new car.
Porsche will bring a new car, which features everything they just learned from the 919.
Audi, we know, always bounces back stronger, when "defeated".
So let's not underestimate Audi and Porsche, they will come back "stronger than ever". Therefor Toyota need to make sure they bring the TS040 up to date, so they won't be left behind.
Of course you are right, that Toyota will lose their comfort in a car they know, and will be exposed to more issues that the current TS040 could bring them.

[Simmi]

Got to say I agree with G4J. I thought Vasselon showed a bit of naivety with his comments about what it took to win Le Mans.

Hopefully it will just be a case of calculated evolution and not revolution.

[Deleted]

I'm with Gingers too.

Peugeot showed that being ~4 seconds faster per lap means nothing if you can't survive the race. And nobody cared when they won every single event in 2010-2011 except the two that mattered. Everything must be focused on winning the 24h next year, and if I rather choose being maybe a tad slower but steadier & one more bullet in the gun than lapping all the other factory cars in one hour mark but ultimately having the two either exploding or crashing into some Ferraris. I mean such thing can still happen with the first option, but in that case you have one more car to put your hopes into. Hell you can even have that third car as the ultra low downforce kamikaze entry with bizarre strategies and the other two being the safe bets

Just bring the same cars with little tweaks to next year. I mean, it saves MONEY too, doesn't that sound delicious to Scrooge McToyota?

[TF110]

Take a look back to this year's Le Mans. Who's at fault for Toyota not winning? #7- an fia sensor. #8- Lapierre's wet weather woes. Without going too far off topic, Audi brang 3 cars and all spent time in the garage. While 3 cars would be nice, if you dont have the budget, why reach for it and compromise 2 fast cars?

Hopefully the board sees this result and increases the funds. Even if two cars are capable, 3 cars increases the chances. But sacrificing pace or development funds for 3 cars and they go and have the same luck as this year, youre left with a slow car that has no chance unless every other car has just as much bad luck. Its a two edge sword. The only thing that can change this is 3 fast cars fully developed. Which would involve more money. I see no other way to go about this.

I agree that they need to keep development up and make next year's car even better/faster. Porsche is already close on ultimate pace, if not tied, are doing a brand new car and maybe 8mj. Audi will definitely try to move up a class of MJ. And Nissan coming in with something unique? Toyota will need to cut weight so they can move up to 8mj. So theyre going to have to make gains regardless. Its an interesting subject.

[Lagunaseca_4life]

Or they could be satisfied with the results this year and completely kill the program off like Peugeot and dodge(although those were for different reasons)

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Lagunaseca_4life

Or they could be satisfied with the results this year and completely kill the program off like Peugeot and dodge(although those were for different reasons)

Very different reasons, as Peugeot had actually developed next year's car. So it really doesn't suit comparison

[Lagunaseca_4life]

[Deleted]

It's irrelevant what ultimately stopped/slowed the cars this year, external components and mother nature and bad luck and whatever, with third car the likelihood of that one continuing to run to the ultimate pace or just generally spending less time in the garage fixing stuff would have been that much higher.

I'm sure in couple of years time when FIA has FIA'd it up with mandatory rule of having only two generic entries with same drivers and same liveries and same specs for every single race, poorly budgeted factory teams could breath, but until then (which is hopefully never)...

[ederss7]

IMO for next year 2 fast cars is better than having 3 that lack pace. Remember that the competition will be harder and in higher number, which means it will be less likely someone winning relying on others' reliability. Toyota could have 10 cars in 2012 or 2013 but that wouldn't be sufficient for them winning because when you race against Audi and have a slower car you got a real problem, theyre always finishing the race and putting pressure on the opponent.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by ederss7

IMO for next year 2 fast cars is better than having 3 that lack pace.

Why would these be the only two options. if they can make one car fast, put the same set-up on the second, and voila, two fast cars. Same set-up on a third and voila encore, another fast car.

For Le Mans, having a third car is a huge advantage given the number of things which can go wrong. However, I fear, as Lagunaseca_4life notes, that Toyota execs can say "We've won races every year with two cars---just go win Le Mans with two cars" (apparently not noticing that Le Mans is, in effect, four races.)

Out of my hands. I have been wishing for three all along, but I am sure glad we have had the two we do have.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Toyota could have 10 cars in 2012 or 2013 but that wouldn't be sufficient for them winning because when you race against Audi and have a slower car you got a real problem, theyre always finishing the race and putting pressure on the opponent.

If you watched Le Mans in the last few years you'll see that Audi really don't have the reliability advantage anymore. There's nothing to say that will improve next year if they add new recovery systems - hence the calls for Toyota to stick with what they have and add a car.

Le Mans was there for the taking this year if they'd had a third car.

In reply to Maelochs point - it's about where you spend your money. On developing your existing two cars to make them quicker or not doing that and adding a third car. At least that's the reasoning Toyota gave.

[TF110]

Its complicated, but simple. TMG operates as a business, so developing the car goes around that schedule. F1 teams (Caterham, Ferrari, McLaren) use the windtunnels for their car or correlation to their own. So the schedule has to fit around that. If they have limited funds and time and realize that most of the car is in-house, with that being the case, you need the design, construction, parts, development, testing all done in the space thats free. Another thing is, if theres no increase in the budget enough to allow 3 cars, subtracting some from the 2-car idea will compromise the whole season. If you do that, your one or two races with the third car may not gain you anything. Especially with the amount of competition and the level of reliability! I can only hope a good decision is made with more money

[ederss7]

Originally Posted by Simmi

If you watched Le Mans in the last few years you'll see that Audi really don't have the reliability advantage anymore. There's nothing to say that will improve next year if they add new recovery systems - hence the calls for Toyota to stick with what they have and add a car.

Le Mans was there for the taking this year if they'd had a third car.

In reply to Maelochs point - it's about where you spend your money. On developing your existing two cars to make them quicker or not doing that and adding a third car. At least that's the reasoning Toyota gave.

Tell me then the last time a car entered by Audi Sport Team Joest or Audi Sport North America failed to finish Le Mans due to a technical failure... This has never happened.
Also, last year Toyota had 3 failures while Audi had only 1. IMHO, on the reliability side, Audi is on another level.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by ederss7

Tell me then the last time a car entered by Audi Sport Team Joest or Audi Sport North America failed to finish Le Mans due to a technical failure... This has never happened.
Also, last year Toyota had 3 failures while Audi had only 1. IMHO, on the reliability side, Audi is on another level.

Le Mans 2007, Capello crashing out from the lead around 7:30 am due to a wheelnut/wheel hub failure.