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Old 30 Oct 2004, 12:35 (Ref:1140503)   #1
cybersdorf
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cybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"cheap & exciting" racing - possible?

I'm not a regular in this forum, but this is where the touringcar experts are, so here goes:

I'm looking into the issue of cost containment in racing (yes I know - not the first, won't be the last), and looking for some input on what a cost-efficient, yet fun to watch, production-based racing series - purposely avoiding the GT/touringcar distinction - should look like. In my personal opinion, neither WTCC nor BTCC or DTM fulfill these criteria - they are either too expensive for anything but high-brow factory racing, or dull to watch, or both.

So if you could build a series from scratch, what should it be - very close to stock prod., spec silhouette, or what? I'd be grateful for any ideas you would like to shere with me.

Last edited by cybersdorf; 30 Oct 2004 at 12:37.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 12:47 (Ref:1140505)   #2
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National Saloons Championship. Swallowed up and then spat out by TOCA when the old BTCC series was falling apart. It was an excellent series but costs shot up when it became first Class B of the BTCC and then BTC-P. Sadly missed.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 13:23 (Ref:1140516)   #3
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
There is also the Super Coupe cup...
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 14:37 (Ref:1140544)   #4
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E46 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It´s very possible certainly. I begun to like motorsport in 80´s (being yet a child), watching old CET races(Spanish touring car championship) with production cars. Rules were quite simple, Group A cars up to 1600 cc and Group N cars over 1600cc. Official teams with group A cars usually and private drivers with group N.
Racing was amazing, and cars? 80´s spirit: Ford Sierra Cosworth, Renault 21 Quadra, Renault 11, Alfa Romeo 33/75 America, Toyota Celica Gt-Four, Fiat Tipo, Citroen BX Turbo, VW Golf,....
I would pay to watch seemed championships today.

Old good times.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 15:06 (Ref:1140555)   #5
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cybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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National Saloons Championship.
But it, as all other Gp.N based series, had the problem (I think) that only a few select manufacturers were willing to support Gp.N, and homologate performance parts for it; and then these parts were costly. So the variety was not there, and you had to pay dearly for every increase in performance. The cars were expensive yet looked unassuming.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 15:12 (Ref:1140559)   #6
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
T-1 with Jonathan Palmer...
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 17:13 (Ref:1140610)   #7
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How about the Britcar championship? Which is run the European Endurance Racing Club. The championship uses old BTCC and DTM cars and there large grids.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 17:15 (Ref:1140612)   #8
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Yes Britcar is very good, although closer to being a sportscar series than a touring car series IMO.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 17:33 (Ref:1140625)   #9
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isn't it that sportscars are coming closer to being touring cars? the monaro isn't a gt car...
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 17:35 (Ref:1140629)   #10
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Clio Cup is pretty popular in Europe
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 18:34 (Ref:1140698)   #11
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Rather than the problem being about the rules, I think the problem is that there just isn't enough global adoption of any type of racing series. There's the WC in the US, DTM in Germany, S2000 in Europe, TC2000 in Argentina, Stockcar in South America, NZ touring cars...

If the "entire" world used the same rules, the S2000/DTM would definitely be "viable". A team can build a car and be able to sell it anywhere in the world. The factories could sell works cars to well financed independents. Well financed independents could then sell to cars to independents in lesser series or less financed series.

I think ST came the closest to being internationally adopted! It topped off in '96 with 13 national championships. Of course, people can debate does 5 cars make a championship.
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Old 30 Oct 2004, 19:49 (Ref:1140749)   #12
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally posted by bella
isn't it that sportscars are coming closer to being touring cars? the monaro isn't a gt car...
I dont see why u think the Monaro isnt a GT car, its a Grand touring car, so IMO it is a GT car. Just because its not fast enough to race in LMES/FIA GT/ALMS dosent mean its not legitimate.
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 11:21 (Ref:1141187)   #13
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's got 2 doors, 4 seats, same as a Porsche, just because it's based on a 4 door Commodore......

We've got 3 Mongrels (Monaro's) sitting down here looking for a class to race in now and are more than fast enough for ALMS/FIA GT/LMES.........

As for Touring Cars, just bring back Group A with a more realistic Turbo-equivalency factor and don't allow homologation specials.

Quote:
Originally posted by kmchow
I think ST came the closest to being internationally adopted! It topped off in '96 with 13 national championships. Of course, people can debate does 5 cars make a championship.
It might have come close, but Super Touring wasn't a patch on Group A globally in real terms.

Last edited by racer69; 31 Oct 2004 at 11:24.
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 18:46 (Ref:1141470)   #14
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Super Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuper Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuper Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSuper Tourer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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T-1 with Jonathan Palmer...
Funny you should mention that! Not heard much about this since the launch 'hoo-ha', will we see it bear fruit I wonder?
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 19:19 (Ref:1141503)   #15
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cybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by kmchow
Rather than the problem being about the rules, I think the problem is that there just isn't enough global adoption of any type of racing series.
Because the rules are a problem?
Example: why should North America care for Super Touring? Why would Europe or Asia care about NASCAR? It does not resemble anything that can be found on the respective roads of these regions. It is especially important for touringcar racing to have some sort of link with what you can buy and drive yourself.

There are "growing" markets - that is, we don't know if any racing will "grow" there but there is plenty of room to grow it - in the Eastern regions of Europe, the new E.U. countries and those waiting to join, also Asia. WTCC, BTCC and DTM are simply to oexpensive to be introduced as the format of choice there. Somehow I don't see the FIA giving any thought to this.

I don't see single make racing as a suitable solution because naturally, it locks out everyone else who wants to join in.

Perhaps something not quite so closely based on the roadgoing product (under the body, that is; the appearance should very much resmeble the roadgoing product - more so than e.g. the DTM cars) is a better concept for manufacturers that might be willing to go racing but simply don't have the resources.

(the "Monaro = GT" argument is completely beside the point here btw)
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 20:12 (Ref:1141555)   #16
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Originally posted by cybersdorf
But it, as all other Gp.N based series, had the problem (I think) that only a few select manufacturers were willing to support Gp.N, and homologate performance parts for it; and then these parts were costly. So the variety was not there, and you had to pay dearly for every increase in performance. The cars were expensive yet looked unassuming.
I thought there was plenty of variety in the NSC. Honda Integras, Civics and Accords, Ford Focii and Escorts, Nissan Primeras, a BMW and a Toyota back in it's heyday.
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 21:54 (Ref:1141594)   #17
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cybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcybersdorf should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And afterwards? - Gp.N heydays never seem to last very long.
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 22:01 (Ref:1141602)   #18
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As has been said before it was destroyed when the BTCC took it over
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 23:19 (Ref:1141656)   #19
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It might have come close, but Super Touring wasn't a patch on Group A globally in real terms.
Were there more Group A based championships than ST championships? I've been a touring car fan only since '95, but have heard abit about the Group A transition to DTM/ST rules.
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Old 31 Oct 2004, 23:53 (Ref:1141684)   #20
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Originally posted by cybersdorf
Because the rules are a problem?
Example: why should North America care for Super Touring? Why would Europe or Asia care about NASCAR? It does not resemble anything that can be found on the respective roads of these regions. It is especially important for touringcar racing to have some sort of link with what you can buy and drive yourself.
Back to the chicken or the egg debate. Whose responsibility should it be? Should the championship be fan or manufacturer supported first? Judging from the past, it seems that championships are largely successful only if manufacturers come on board.

If no manufacturer, no series. That said, the Lexus IS300/BWM 3 series/Volvo S40/Ford Focus/Honda Accord is found in more global markets than the traditional Nascar models. But I guess, why struggle to start a new series when the old one is doing fine?
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Old 1 Nov 2004, 09:48 (Ref:1141894)   #21
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Were there more Group A based championships than ST championships? I've been a touring car fan only since '95, but have heard abit about the Group A transition to DTM/ST rules.
In terms of the amount of national championships running to Group A regulations, i'm not sure, but all the 'important' touring car championships (in terms of clout on the international Touring Car stage) at the time in the mid-late 80s ran to Group A regulations:

Australian Touring Car Championship
British Touring Car Championship
DTM - though in a slightly modified form, still the same idea
Japanese Touring Car Championship

Plus there was the European Touring Car Championship, and the World Touring Car Championship that was only formed due to the success of Group A.

On top of that there was the big races in New Zealand, the Macau Guia race, plus all the big Touring Car races in the world were run to Group A regulations, Bathurst 1000, Spa 24 hours, Silverstone TT, Fuji Intertec 500, Macau as mentioned.

The closet Super Touring came, despite the success of national series, was a couple of 'World Cup' races and Macau, and two ultimatly unsuccessful (though great races) Bathurst 1000s.
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Old 1 Nov 2004, 22:35 (Ref:1142430)   #22
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As has been said before it was destroyed when the BTCC took it over


Maybe, but if it was so badly needed it'd be back racing, wouldn't it ??
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Old 2 Nov 2004, 10:10 (Ref:1142712)   #23
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Originally posted by Craig
As has been said before it was destroyed when the BTCC took it over

How right you are Craig, costs rose considerably putting out of action some good front running teams altogether. The problem in getting it back is purely because of posioning it with the right championship.
Yes, it was apparent that BTCC wanted NS as a stop gap to their shortfalls, with the objective of making it impossible to run once they had acheived their aims.
If there was a position for it, there would be sufficient teams and homologated parts to build and run again.
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Old 2 Nov 2004, 15:52 (Ref:1142923)   #24
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It is such a shame Bob. It was a great series and it was still really good from a spectator point of view in 2001 when it was known as BTC-P and ran within the BTCC. However costs were rising at a silly rate even then - ask Paul Ridgeway how much it was costing him to run the four Focus's!! Unfortunately the whole team folded at the end of that season - most of the blame for that must lie with the rise in costs as a direct result of it being merged with BTCC.
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Old 2 Nov 2004, 16:42 (Ref:1142956)   #25
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I'd say that was partly the reason they folded, but GR have existed in several different forms since they were founded, the latest being GR Asia. I'd put it down to bad financial management. In 2001 only 1 of the Focii was owned by GR, that of Gareth Howell. The rest were owned by the drivers and they were paying GR to run them.
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