Lister Hybrid

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

It looks like the nose changed again: this picture was taken at Dunlop tyre testing this weeekend at Estoril.

You're right. Does this latest development increase downforce at the front end? Laurence Pearce said there was a fundamental problem with the original design.

[MikeHoyer]

Apparently there was, but he said to me at the last test they'd changed the front, and I imagine that was what that was for. Maybe it still wasn't doing the job...

[Randy]

It doesn't exactly get any better looking does it?

With all these constant and fundamental changes it makes you wonder whether it was a particularly good idea to start messing with what the experienced and talented original designer did to start with. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to either spend the money on proper development as needed or pack it in? Maybe I'm just too sceptical...

I do admire them for being a bit different though.

[John75]

Hope they get included at Le Mans would be good to see Laurence there.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by John75

Hope they get included at Le Mans would be good to see Laurence there.

They've already been invited!

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Randy

It doesn't exactly get any better looking does it?

With all these constant and fundamental changes it makes you wonder whether it was a particularly good idea to start messing with what the experienced and talented original designer did to start with. Perhaps it would have been a good idea to either spend the money on proper development as needed or pack it in? Maybe I'm just too sceptical...

I do admire them for being a bit different though.

It's been running like a train in testing, few if any problems.

The front downforce issue was solved with the redesign a while back, this just looks like a further refinement.

Apparently the hybrid produces more downforce and less drag than the LMP900.

Going by Listers experiences with the Storm GT1, they always seem to overcome any initial problems, given the budget and testing time.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JAG

It's been running like a train in testing, few if any problems.

The front downforce issue was solved with the redesign a while back, this just looks like a further refinement.

Apparently the hybrid produces more downforce and less drag than the LMP900.

Going by Listers experiences with the Storm GT1, they always seem to overcome any initial problems, given the budget and testing time.

Given that the Hybrid design brief (from the ACO perspective) was to reduce downforce by roughly 15% and inrease drag by 15%--in order to prevent cars going airborne at different yaw angles, the original LMP900 Storm must either have been terrible from an aero point of view or these reent statements have to be taken with a degree of caution. Given the car's original designer, I would suggest the latter interpretation.

Either way, it is great to have such an individual approach to design.

[JAG]

Times move on.

You only need to look at F1 were much more dramatic aero restrictions have been overcome in one close season in recent years.

Most P900/675 designs are at least 3 years old, and with the exception of the 'MG' Lola, R8 and Reynard/DBA/Zytek, I doubt many were extensively tested in the windtunnel.

Lola and Dome have also claimed increased downforce, lower drag for their new reg cars and the lap times tell their own story.

Take a look at the pace of the original NASAMAX Hybrid, way off the pace of the P900/675's. Last season Pescarolo matched the P900/675's, now the R10, Lola and latest hybrids from Creation and Zytek will take it a stage further.

The ACO downforce/drag brief can be taken with a pinch of salt, the major issue was to stop the aero instability which has been achieved with the tunnels and such like.

[Randy]

If you look at any car, f1 or sportscar, that has overcome regulated aero restrictions you will notice they have spent HUGE amounts of time in the wind tunnel to do this. Please correct me but I can't see that Lister could find the budget to do this? My point is perhaps proven by the way the nose has had to change significantly, because it wasn't right the first time round, which can't have been easy budget wise as new mould have to be made every time. I would suggest that the original design had excellent conceptual thinking but not enough wind tunnel time to optimise effectively.

As I say, I admire these guys enormously. No way I would have the balls to do things this way.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Well I imagine getting less drag isn't that difficult when a lot of these P900's sacrificed front overhang in order to get 1000mm+ rear overhang.

As a result the front ends were very inefficient in particular the Lister P900's "Diesel Locomotive" looking front wheel archs.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Randy

If you look at any car, f1 or sportscar, that has overcome regulated aero restrictions you will notice they have spent HUGE amounts of time in the wind tunnel to do this. Please correct me but I can't see that Lister could find the budget to do this? My point is perhaps proven by the way the nose has had to change significantly, because it wasn't right the first time round, which can't have been easy budget wise as new mould have to be made every time. I would suggest that the original design had excellent conceptual thinking but not enough wind tunnel time to optimise effectively.

As I say, I admire these guys enormously. No way I would have the balls to do things this way.

I doubt the car has spent much time in the wind tunnel, they seem to be doing the testing on track.

In previous seasons they've been distracted by the GT1 car and I guess more of their budget is now directed towards the prototype seeing as it's clearly their future.

This is the first year they've had a full season budget in place and stable driving squad.

I've read the Lister was a good good handling car, it certainly looked that way at Silverstone. The engine was underpowered but that now seems to have been sorted.

[The Badger]

[QUOTE=JAG]It's been running like a train in testing, few if any problems.[/QUOTE}

We've heard that before too .... i hope so though !!!

[jhansen]

Ok, so it's running like a train in testing.

But is it setting quick lap times? I'm skeptical...

[JAG]

I don't why everyones got such a downer on Lister.

They've consistently shown over a 10 year period they can compete with, and beat the best.

The early career of the prototype was blighted by lack of budget, mileage and the GT1 program. The last year has been spent developing the engine which is now, apparently, putting out good power.

The chassis has always been great, handling wise.

At Silverstone 2004 it was the only car that could stick to the back of the Zytek through the twisty stuff.

I refer you back to the early career of the GT1 Storm, and look how that ended up, FIA GT Champion against a fleet of then still competitive Vipers.

[Carse]

Is it still using an ls6 engine?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by JAG

I don't why everyones got such a downer on Lister.

They've consistently shown over a 10 year period they can compete with, and beat the best.

The early career of the prototype was blighted by lack of budget, mileage and the GT1 program. The last year has been spent developing the engine which is now, apparently, putting out good power.

The chassis has always been great, handling wise.

At Silverstone 2004 it was the only car that could stick to the back of the Zytek through the twisty stuff.

I refer you back to the early career of the GT1 Storm, and look how that ended up, FIA GT Champion against a fleet of then still competitive Vipers.

Agreed - I'll be a big Lister fan once more in 2006!!

[cmk]

To be fair, they did benefit from some rule breaks while beating the best. This isn't intended to debase their successes, many teams have had the same benefits extended to them while being world-beaters besides Lister, but it's an important fact.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JAG

I don't why everyones got such a downer on Lister.

Could it be: 'more talk than action' in recent years.

It is a real shame as Lister's laurels far outweigh those of many other teams but, like before, Mr Pearce should let the racing do the talking.

[AMT]

Originally Posted by JAG

Apparently the hybrid produces more downforce and less drag than the LMP900.

"Believe none of what you read, and only half of what you see".

[gwyllion]

Pictures for the Lister at Estoril: http://www.lmsr.net/mar110.html Again it seems to look a bit different.

[Flat12-Aircool]

I'm not sure whether its physically different again. I think it's just that the cars got a few more stickers on it.

Looks good though, the more I see this car the more I like it!

[jhansen]

I would like to revive this thread. I certainly must say that I fall in the category of people that are down on Lister. I don't understand what it is that they are doing with this car. The best time it could manage at the test day was a 3:54.099, which is 2.69 seconds slower than the quickest GT1 car. It was the slowest car in LMP1, some 9.69 seconds slower than the next highest LMP1 car (Swiss Spirt) and almost 24 seconds off the leading Pescarolo car.

http://www.gtphotosport.com/lm2006_1/KPK_4500.html

I'm no design expert, but the front portion of that car certainly doesn't appear to be in the spirt of reduced frontal area. This car may have been taken too far from what the original designer intended that it is now detrimental to its performance.

[brielga]

Honestly I don't know what's going on...I've seen them last year and this year at Spa, always off the pace and I cannot understand how they made it to the LM list (instead of say the 2nd Creation). Don't get me wrong I have a lot of respect for Lister as a team and their track record but this experiment has never quite gotten close to expectations...

[ss_collins]

I do wonder how they got an entry

[WouterM]

I saw it enter the main straight right on the tail of the Murcielago (not the quickest car either) and it took until well into the new Dunlop corner to get alongside the Lambo. So it looks like it is down on power or runs too much downforce.