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Old 24 Aug 2022, 15:46 (Ref:4123602)   #181
touring fan01
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Originally Posted by Sodemo View Post
I still think that Supertouring could have been sustained at or near the level it was for another 10 years, if the right promotion was behind it. I believe it was £10M was the Prodrive / Ford bill for the 2000 season, when you compare the top budgets of F1 at the time which were near £200M, it does offer good value for money, the problem is the comparative lack of exposure. I am not sure if this was a problem with TV or the series not promoting itself or the car makers not doing some of that, I am not sure, maybe a bit of everything. Lets face it, £10M would be a bargain if it had live TV and was beamed to every motorsport viewing household in Europe and or the world.


you really think that having all the teams and manufacturers each spending around £10m a year on a domestic championship would be sustainable

you forget that they did and it proved it wasnt
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Old 24 Aug 2022, 16:44 (Ref:4123609)   #182
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Originally Posted by touring fan01 View Post
you really think that having all the teams and manufacturers each spending around £10m a year on a domestic championship would be sustainable

you forget that they did and it proved it wasnt
It wasn't sustainable in the UK, and withdrawal of all the manufacturers because they couldn't justify the cost proves that.

The same happened with DTM: Once one manufacturer pulled out, the value for the other two fell dramatically, and when the second pulled out, the third had no choice but to do the same.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns. Every year that you do the same thing, the marketing value of that thing reduces.

SEAT is a great example. In its first year in the BTCC the brand recognition rose by 2000% and new car sales were growing by >5% per year. But by 2008, sales had dropped back to 2001 levels - the BTCC and SEAT Cupra Championship were no longer a valuable marketing tool.
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Old 24 Aug 2022, 20:14 (Ref:4123616)   #183
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It wasn't sustainable in the UK, and withdrawal of all the manufacturers because they couldn't justify the cost proves that.

The same happened with DTM: Once one manufacturer pulled out, the value for the other two fell dramatically, and when the second pulled out, the third had no choice but to do the same.

You also have to remember the law of diminishing returns. Every year that you do the same thing, the marketing value of that thing reduces.

SEAT is a great example. In its first year in the BTCC the brand recognition rose by 2000% and new car sales were growing by >5% per year. But by 2008, sales had dropped back to 2001 levels - the BTCC and SEAT Cupra Championship were no longer a valuable marketing tool.
Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender
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Old 24 Aug 2022, 20:29 (Ref:4123618)   #184
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Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender

RML only ran the cars in 2004. Northern South took over for the remainder of SEAT's time in the championship. Jason Plato was a championship contender to a greater/lesser extent every year the SEATs ran.
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Old 24 Aug 2022, 20:48 (Ref:4123619)   #185
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Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender
*Cough* 2007 would think otherwise. A SEAT was leading the championship going into the final event by nine points and and by one point until the final race.

A SEAT was also 2nd going into the final event in 2006 and 2008 too.
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Old 24 Aug 2022, 20:56 (Ref:4123620)   #186
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and he would have gotten away with it too, if it weren’t for a meddling italian
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Old 25 Aug 2022, 07:28 (Ref:4123636)   #187
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Plus after the move from RML to the works team it was never a Championship contender
So if it wasn't a title contender in 06-08, what does that make it's one season with RML in 04? Mediocre?
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Old 25 Aug 2022, 07:35 (Ref:4123639)   #188
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So if it wasn't a title contender in 06-08, what does that make it's one season with RML in 04? Mediocre?
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Old 4 Sep 2022, 19:33 (Ref:4124834)   #189
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Dynamics to use the new Honda next year?
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Old 4 Sep 2022, 19:39 (Ref:4124838)   #190
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Dynamics to use the new Honda next year?
It's not sold in the UK yet, I don't think? They're no longer supported by Honda unfortunately, so have no reason to run the new Civic than any other car.

I reckon they'll stick with the FK8 for another year.

The Astra is the model most likely to get replaced in terms of age, and arguably performance.
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Old 4 Sep 2022, 19:52 (Ref:4124840)   #191
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Old 5 Sep 2022, 22:59 (Ref:4125051)   #192
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I'm not sure that was possible - the regulations were used in many series both nationally and internationally, including the highest profile series' of Touring Car World Cup, BTCC, Super Tourenwagen Cup and Australian Super Touring Championship.
The European Touring Car Championship continued with Super Touring for one more year until 2001, giving rise to such beauties as the 156 Super Tourer. Even they gave up on the class after then though.

Paul Radisich discusses the evolution and increasing sophistication of the Mondeo Super Tourer over the years here and takes examples of the increasing complex Ford for spin, likening the final model as almost having the traction of an all-wheel-drive car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwsECCzn82w

[Whether it be through rule creep and competitors getting more concessions, or freedoms that were always in the rules but were only exploited when more money came to do so? How did that creep happen? ]

However long before 2000, the British championship was already struggling with finding enough privateers able to afford to run (or even wanting to run) the increasingly expensive and sophisticated Super Touring vehicles.

It seems privateers felt they had little chance against the works teams.

The BTCC came up with their rules, the FIA came up with the Super 2000 rules (IIRC, the FIA rules were more production-based, the BTCC rules more pragmatic and standardised), and those rules were of course later harmonised in the BTCC IIRC.

Going to a lower-cost, privateer-friendly vehicle was probably the right move, particularly the second move to NGTC regulations where technical development on the cars by the teams (suspension, engine etc) is very limited AFAIK, allowing (AFAIK) privateers to run the cars without necessarily needing to have CNC milling machines, engine dynos or large amounts of engineering capacity.
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Old 5 Sep 2022, 23:23 (Ref:4125055)   #193
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The European Touring Car Championship continued with Super Touring for one more year until 2001, giving rise to such beauties as the 156 Super Tourer. Even they gave up on the class after then though..
The European Touring Car Championship was held with super tourers in 2000 and 2001

and let's be honest it was formed on the rotten corpse of the italian super turismo which folded at end of 1999 season due to lack of entries (they barely could get 10 cars in most races....) and also from corpse of 1999 STW (like the works Honda team which went from STW to ETCC) , the irony is the 1999 STW was actually still in good health and produced some great racing and controverises !!!! works cars from Honda, Opel , Alfa Romeo and semi works cars from Audi... (as works 4WD was banned by this point) and plenty of privatters on the grid , mostly with Vectras , Alfas and Audi.

now the 2001 ETCC races are on youtube and frankly they are mostly BORING , because the quality difference of the small field is just too much , 2 full works teams and the rest bunch of privateers with no chance, 2000 season by comparison was better supported and racing was more exiting
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Old 6 Sep 2022, 09:13 (Ref:4125090)   #194
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RML only ran the cars in 2004. Northern South took over for the remainder of SEAT's time in the championship. Jason Plato was a championship contender to a greater/lesser extent every year the SEATs ran.
and now Northern South are a classic car company in NZ

https://www.exotics.co.nz/seat-cupra-championship/
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Old 6 Sep 2022, 10:19 (Ref:4125094)   #195
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and now Northern South are a classic car company in NZ

https://www.exotics.co.nz/seat-cupra-championship/

I imagine the only continuity that iteration had with the team that ran the BTCC SEATs will be Grant Clearwater himself.
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