What would you do to below F1 single seaters/The lack of a non-spec series below F1 - Page 2

TalkToFrank · 22 Jun 2010, 21:55 (Ref:2716589)

The next few years will be very interesting. GP2 is clearly the only series that could be called F2 and is a true feeder to F1 because of the strength of drivers, teams and staff working in the series. The fact that it piggy backs on the F1 events in Europe means relationships will be made with F1 personel.

It is known that Todt is not a fan of Formula 2, so will be interesting to see if it will last after next year. The other question is whether Bernie is still around at the start of 2012 and whether he and his mates will allow GP2 and GP3 to become official FIA series. That is the FIAs biggest problem right now.

There will always be upstart series in the lower levels competing for attention but it is clear who the main players are on the ladder to the top.

jondownunder · 23 Jun 2010, 01:21 (Ref:2716655)

Quote:

Originally Posted by strider

Without saying too much, yes, I do. In time for 2012, all being well.

It's good to hear you have grounds for optimism that things will be streamlined.

I really do hope you're right. I've given up explaining to people where the different series I follow and attend fit in in the 'ladder' beneath F1. It was so much easier in the 90s (you just had to explain that F3000 is effectively F2)...

**chunterer** · 27 Jun 2010, 16:46 (Ref:2718709)

GP2 works well, succeeds in its 'slot'. It would be plain silly to remove it so I would sincerely hope that it is taken under the wing of the FIA as a proper F2in a couple of years time. I think costs will need to be cut quite a bit to make things more sensible though.

Palmers F2 isn't working - it's a glorified club series imo and the GP3, god what is that??

F3 will continue porhaps with some modifications to the regs. But what would they be?

duke_toaster · 27 Jun 2010, 17:07 (Ref:2718735)

In terms of F3, I'd go for heavier cars, further restrictions in car materials, more power from sealed 1800cc turbo engines and more or less aero development freezes.

With regards to GP2, to be honest I still don't think the second tier should be a spec series.

Vintage Aston · 12 Jul 2010, 22:08 (Ref:2725769)

At least there's possibly one thing we'll all agree on - the talent starts at Karting!

To look at what's out there for the average European driver, with a bit of cash behind him, the 'ladder' to F1 is a daunting place. Then if you pencil (and these are wild approximates by no means researched) all the drivers currently racing in 2010 - and then you consider that there's possibly 4 maybe 5 drives to be filled in F1 next year. For how long can drivers sit in the wings and pay half millions/millions of euros to championships? Superleague remains a huge question mark on the top end of racing (and i say top end because of the car spec, not the actual racing). Where they get their 1M euros baffels me...

Karting
FFord
F4 - 18
F3 Italy - 25
F3 Germany - 22
F3 Euro - 13
F3 Britain - 22
Euro F3 Open - 18
F2 - 16
WSR 2.0 - 20
WSR 3.5 - 23
GP3 - 30
GP2 - 24
AutoGP - 14
Superleague Formula - 17
(F1 test drivers - 12)
F1 - 24 ** have i forgoten any?

GP2 and GP3 stay single spec because they are a commercial business - they make their money on the parts and the income from teams. Teams pay a fortune becaue they run on F1 events, and pay for broadcasting. GP2 does offer some of the best racing outside F1. F3 offers the best learning outside F1 for drivers and personnel. GP3 teams are struggling because of the cost to keep the cars running and the fact that there just isnt the cash around for drivers to spend.

duke_toaster · 15 Jul 2010, 08:26 (Ref:2726977)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintage Aston

Superleague remains a huge question mark on the top end of racing (and i say top end because of the car spec, not the actual racing). Where they get their 1M euros baffels me...

Almost certainly it's Sonangol. Well, they've got previous for chucking money away, look at their sponsorship of Ricardo Tiexera

davyboy · 15 Jul 2010, 08:48 (Ref:2726995)

I think we're looking at things the wrong way around. It appears the elephant in the room is Formula One and not the lower formulae. For a variety of reasons, single seater racing has defaulted to spec. formulae just about everywhere [F3 is a Dallara spec. formula] - except for F1 ! Like many others who've been involved in motorsport for decades, I hate it but I have to accept it. As others have already pointed out, this development has created a chasm between F1 and the other rungs on the ladder from an engineering, driver and above all, cost perspective. The spec. formulae below F1 will not be changed into open formulae, so it leaves us to do something about F1.

There are a couple of options :

- Dramatically restrict the development window to specific areas and use spec. components for everything else.
- Make F1 a spec. formula itself.

It would seem that the latter would make more sense in an environment of austerity and cost control.

So what about engineering evolution and innovation - well, sportscars, touring cars and rallying should be the platforms for that. In fact most of the socially useful innovations are already taking place there. The two major innovations in F1 over the last 2 years - the double diffuser and the F-duct are not only incomprehensible to the man in the street they are extremely expensive and utterly useless follies in existance until they're banned by the FIA.

I think we all need to wake up to a future where Formula One is first and foremost about entertainment and excitement. All the investment needs to be plied into improving the show and not into a futile and incomprehensible space race.

NaBUru38 · 29 May 2019, 19:27 (Ref:3906824)

Thread bump!

http://www.formulascout.com/why-euro...-formula/49322

Juntos · 29 May 2019, 22:47 (Ref:3906849)

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Thread bump!

www.formulascout.com/why-europe-needs-a-series-to-rival-indycar-and-super-formula/49322

No single seater category in Europe can financially survive below F1 except if it belongs to F1 itself. Telling an introvert to go to a party is like telling a saint to go to Hell - financial burden.

S griffin · 31 May 2019, 17:31 (Ref:3907194)

It’ll be nice to have more multi make formulas below F1, but such is the costs in this era, those days are gone, probably forever. Shame, as it gave not only drivers, but personal a lot of experience up the ladder

Roninho · 4 Jun 2019, 13:11 (Ref:3907873)

I think it is perfectly doable to have a multi make serie, and actually think it would probably be doable to have a junior serie with each team designing and building its own car.
But it will only work if the serie is seen as THE stepping stone to F1. In that case every driver with sponsorship money (from a sponsor, daddy or OEM support) will be looking for a seat.
You will also have to accept that there will be teams with awfull cars, unreliable engines and constant out of money.

Last2LiftOff · 4 Jun 2019, 23:39 (Ref:3907967)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roninho

You will also have to accept that there will be teams with awfull cars, unreliable engines and constant out of money.

Seems wonderfully contradictory Ron. How would teams with awful cars, unreliable engines, and constantly out of money be perfectly doable? Or have I missed the sarcasm?

S griffin · 5 Jun 2019, 08:13 (Ref:3908005)

Maybe have the rules tight so no car has a massive advantage over the others

Roninho · 5 Jun 2019, 17:11 (Ref:3908103)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Last2LiftOff

Seems wonderfully contradictory Ron. How would teams with awful cars, unreliable engines, and constantly out of money be perfectly doable? Or have I missed the sarcasm?

The 1 big advantage of spec racing and semi spec racing a la indycar is that 90% of the field is competitive.
A serie like f2 going for every team designing its own car is imo perfectly doable in the sense that a typical f2 budget should be big enough to pay for that.
However the differences between the cars will be huge, resulting in the back end of the grid being totally uncompetitive (a la tge 80s in f1 and indycar).

So yes its doable but will also redult in massive performance differences that we are not used to seeing in this era

Johno.UK · 6 Jun 2019, 09:52 (Ref:3908243)

It's the age old issue of people looking at motorsport purely from the perspective of it being about the driver and nothing else. Spec series are fine if that were true but it's not. Motorsport is about everyone involved in the team. The more spec the car and the tighter the rules in non-spec series the less interest there is for engineers, designers etc.