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Old 5 Oct 2011, 07:56 (Ref:2965956)   #31
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What's the capital cost of a 312 and how does it compare with the current car.
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Old 16 Oct 2011, 20:27 (Ref:2972078)   #32
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Getting back on track with the future of F3 though. The whole current state of motorsport, and the way it's being managed by the FIA is killing itself.

This whole 3 or 4 year chassis cycle is just total sh*te.

It's fairly well known (inside motorsport) that a lot of the teams can't afford to take a new car for next year, especially with the major differences on the new Dallara. New design uprights, new hewland gearbox, rendering most of the spares the teams have redundant. To then be followed a year later by the 'world engine' meaning additional purchases of fitting kits and whatever electronics system is selected (as it's open to tender, and there's no guarentee that Bosch will get it again...)

Really, what is wrong with the current car!? I think the German championship has got it right for next year. Taking on the 'redundant' F308 and introducing a spec Volkswagen engine, that can do a full season without a rebuild. F3 racing at a sensible price. Controlling costs and safeguarding the future but making what is currently available cheaper to run
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Old 16 Oct 2011, 21:53 (Ref:2972123)   #33
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Sounds more and more like these things are coming in deliberately to further destabilise or kill off major F3 series and move more and more support towards GPLawnmower.....
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Old 17 Oct 2011, 01:27 (Ref:2972323)   #34
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Really, what is wrong with the current car!? I think the German championship has got it right for next year. Taking on the 'redundant' F308 and introducing a spec Volkswagen engine, that can do a full season without a rebuild. F3 racing at a sensible price. Controlling costs and safeguarding the future but making what is currently available cheaper to run
There is no doubt that the F308 is getting older and F3 needs to keep at the forefornt. The German series is OK, but even better to consider the European Open F3 Championship.

Almost all F1 tracks, loads of testing, great TV, the new F312 car (supposedly with a DRS system) and an engine that does two seasons between rebuilds. All for a lower budget than British Rookie National Class.
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Old 17 Oct 2011, 10:58 (Ref:2972538)   #35
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Sounds more and more like these things are coming in deliberately to further destabilise or kill off major F3 series and move more and more support towards GPLawnmower.....
I may be wrong, but I have this feeling that GPLawnmower is like an enormous bubble waiting to burst. It's all so artificial. I even think F2 is better and that's really saying something.

I have no idea how, but the teams were persuaded to sign up to run two cars at every meeting with massive financial penalties if they failed to do so. That's how they get a full grid every time. Teams are running drivers at a loss on the basis that some money is better than no money.

As for the drivers, they get real no satisfaction from racing the cars. Yes, good results look fine on their CVs, but listening to Valtteri Bottas and Alexander Sims at the last two BF3 meetings, they both much preferred F3 for just about every reason you could think of and said that every other driver in the GP3 paddock would say the same..
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Old 17 Oct 2011, 11:49 (Ref:2972565)   #36
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I may be wrong, but I have this feeling that GPLawnmower is like an enormous bubble waiting to burst. It's all so artificial. I even think F2 is better and that's really saying something.

I have no idea how, but the teams were persuaded to sign up to run two cars at every meeting with massive financial penalties if they failed to do so. That's how they get a full grid every time. Teams are running drivers at a loss on the basis that some money is better than no money.

As for the drivers, they get real no satisfaction from racing the cars. Yes, good results look fine on their CVs, but listening to Valtteri Bottas and Alexander Sims at the last two BF3 meetings, they both much preferred F3 for just about every reason you could think of and said that every other driver in the GP3 paddock would say the same..
Agreed. It feels like they're in a bit of a scramble getting rid of the three car rule, and if the budget news about European F3 Open is true(posted in the GP3 2012 thread) I can't imagine how that isn't a golden option for someone at this level.
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Old 17 Oct 2011, 12:05 (Ref:2972574)   #37
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I may be wrong, but I have this feeling that GPLawnmower is like an enormous bubble waiting to burst. It's all so artificial. I even think F2 is better and that's really saying something.

I have no idea how, but the teams were persuaded to sign up to run two cars at every meeting with massive financial penalties if they failed to do so. That's how they get a full grid every time. Teams are running drivers at a loss on the basis that some money is better than no money.

As for the drivers, they get real no satisfaction from racing the cars. Yes, good results look fine on their CVs, but listening to Valtteri Bottas and Alexander Sims at the last two BF3 meetings, they both much preferred F3 for just about every reason you could think of and said that every other driver in the GP3 paddock would say the same..
Very insightful strider, thank you.

I can't say i'm surprised about the drivers views even if might be said that Bottas made hard work of F3, so even more impressive to hear him thinking this!

I guess the main reason they have done 'GPL' is because sponsors or their career might be better suited short term at least by racing in front of the F1 and GP2 teams every other weekend.

That shouldn't, as you have pointed out, be confused with what actually constitutes a proper racing category....
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Old 17 Oct 2011, 22:50 (Ref:2972947)   #38
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I think there are 4 main reasons for a driver who has done F3 to move and do GP3

1. F1 teams watch GP3 races , they don't watch F3 races .
2. GP3 races on Pirelli tyres . If you want to move up to GP2 and eventually F1 , you need to know these tyres .
3. The move from F3 straight to GP2 is getting harder to do and unless you have really unlimited budgets , you want to arrive in GP2 as prepared as possible .
4. You need to get used to series with limited testing and set up time because that is the reality further up the ladder in GP2 and F1 .

Having said all that , when you talk to F1 teams , they all still believe in F3 because they think that is where the drivers learn the most about setting up a car . So , I think in the future you will see ( as you did this year ) many drivers moving from F3 to GP3 seeing this as the right intermediate step on the way to GP2 .
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 00:39 (Ref:2973027)   #39
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The last three British F3 champions, Jaime Alguersuari, Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne are already in F1, so Red Bull at least must take notice. They appear to realise that Formula Renault 3.5 is a much better proving ground than GP3.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 10:36 (Ref:2973185)   #40
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I think there are 4 main reasons for a driver who has done F3 to move and do GP3

1. F1 teams watch GP3 races , they don't watch F3 races .
2. GP3 races on Pirelli tyres . If you want to move up to GP2 and eventually F1 , you need to know these tyres .
3. The move from F3 straight to GP2 is getting harder to do and unless you have really unlimited budgets , you want to arrive in GP2 as prepared as possible .
4. You need to get used to series with limited testing and set up time because that is the reality further up the ladder in GP2 and F1 .

Having said all that , when you talk to F1 teams , they all still believe in F3 because they think that is where the drivers learn the most about setting up a car . So , I think in the future you will see ( as you did this year ) many drivers moving from F3 to GP3 seeing this as the right intermediate step on the way to GP2 .
this is all good stuff and i want to address it point by point.

i'd argue that gp3 makes gp2 redundant, not f3, for your point 1. if you wait till gp2 to be spotted by a f1 team, it's too late. unless you have a huge wad of cash in which case, gp2 is where you belong anyway.

re: point 2, perhaps the tyre changes in gp2 for next year might reinforce this. i'm not convinced of that until presented with evidence that gp3-gp2-f1 tyres all behave similarly purely because they're pirellis.

point 3, this is why people do at least a year of fr3.5 now instead of 2 years of gp2. much more tracktime to get used to the big noisy cars, easier to bring guests, good circuits, etc etc. i'm not sure why it's an arguement for gp3 though?

point 4, well... i guess if a driver is still learning, they want as much tracktime as possible to test as many variants as they can. if you think about how red bull manage their juniors, they're getting as much tracktime as they can. which is perhaps why they avoid gp2 now. surely you want loads of tracktime and experience before f1 rather than restricting yourself?
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 11:07 (Ref:2973199)   #41
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Is it too much to hope that in this 'squable' about the number of cars per team that we can remember that the mechanics, engineers and other support staff in the series rely on their employment with the teams and that if the series is destroyed, a significant number of good people and their families will be left without an income. While that may not affect some, many?, of the team owners, it will definately have a negative effect on the people working for them.

Can we ask that a sensible decision is made for the good of the series, and those who make their living from it?
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 13:17 (Ref:2973241)   #42
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Very insightful strider, thank you.
It wasn't as insightful as it could have been because I said the number of cars to be run by each team was two. In fact has been three, which makes the situation even worse, but as mentioned elsewhere there is talk of it being reduced to 2 for next season, which would make sense, but still not add to the attractions for the formula for me. They are strictly and only the ones mentioned by you.

In fairness to Valtteri "Vale" Bottas, his record as an F3 driver is pretty good, including back-to-back wins in the Zandvoort Masters of Formula 3, which may not be the race it once was, but is still pretty important.
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 14:11 (Ref:2973266)   #43
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The last three British F3 champions, Jaime Alguersuari, Daniel Ricciardo and Jean-Eric Vergne are already in F1, so Red Bull at least must take notice. They appear to realise that Formula Renault 3.5 is a much better proving ground than GP3.
I believe Red Bull run their drivers in WS rather than GP2 so that they can be reserve F1 drivers at the GP weekends ( not possible if you're doing GP2 ) . The problem for all other drivers is again that the F1 teams don't watch WS .
Having said that , I do agree that WS is the alternative intermediate step to GP3 between F3 and GP2 .
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 16:55 (Ref:2973322)   #44
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Good point about Red Bull drivers needing to be kept as F1 reserve drivers.

However, you must be having a laugh if you think that WSR is a stepping stone from F3 to GP3! Why take two steps backwards?
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Old 18 Oct 2011, 17:01 (Ref:2973327)   #45
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i suppose most worryingly the future of f3 is in the drivers and their managers hands. it would be interesting to hear their thoughts and logic in this discussion.
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