[BTCC] BTCC 2020 season discussion, News and Rumours!

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Yes. He has had very good in team competition before - Mssrs Muller and Sutton for example. And it's not like JP owns or runs PMR. He has influence undoubtedly, but he has nothing like the say in the running that some seem to imagine.

I have heard rumours JP wants to or is buying the team.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Wildish Motorbase thought (I have not seen the car so do not know!) but it could be the new shape Focus. The road going RS may not be on sale but it's just a badge on the race car - the roadcar engine, transmission, suspension etc etc don't get anywhere near the NGTC race cars.

A thought. Most likely wrong...

What like a Volkswagen Veyron - not actually for sale but hey it’s only a badge.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Wildish Motorbase thought (I have not seen the car so do not know!) but it could be the new shape Focus. The road going RS may not be on sale but it's just a badge on the race car - the roadcar engine, transmission, suspension etc etc don't get anywhere near the NGTC race cars.

A thought. Most likely wrong...

It's not just a badge though, the RS looks different to a normal Focus, plus an RS would be based on a mk4 facelift car, as no one knows what a mk4 facelift would look like let alone an RS variant, what would be the point in putting an RS badge on it.
Unless your a chav with his Vauxhall 1.2 with a VXR badge on the back, then yeah a great idea.

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by Robshillito1990

Its rubbish. A few new body panels and they call it a "new build" even Giovanardi couldn't do anything with it. Chilton gave up on it aswell. Hopefully Butcher isnt there because it will be a step backwards and very much doubt Shedden would want to drive a mediocre at best car.

Butcher already has half a season in it at the end of 2017. He knows what he's getting into.

[Rob877]

Originally Posted by mj088

Ship has sailed, Mat won't be back and Motorbase have to put up with the inferior Jackson.

Yeah I get that, was just making the point that their car isn't as bad as people are making out.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by RS67

It's not just a badge though, the RS looks different to a normal Focus, plus an RS would be based on a mk4 facelift car, as no one knows what a mk4 facelift would look like let alone an RS variant, what would be the point in putting an RS badge on it.
Unless your a chav with his Vauxhall 1.2 with a VXR badge on the back, then yeah a great idea.

...and one of those V8 badges from Halfords

As for RS, yes, I doubt the crazy thought. But frankly who knows... from a badging/ marketing point anything may go. An RS Focus is a Focus. Most of the bits are different but it is still a Focus. Not a Mustang. Or a Fiesta. Or the Millenium Falcon.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

...and one of those V8 badges from Halfords

As for RS, yes, I doubt the crazy thought. But frankly who knows... from a badging/ marketing point anything may go. An RS Focus is a Focus. Most of the bits are different but it is still a Focus. Not a Mustang. Or a Fiesta. Or the Millenium Falcon.

Drive one, I guarantee you'll think differently.

[mjcapri]

Originally Posted by RS67

Drive one, I guarantee you'll think differently.

It is a Focus though. It doesn’t go, stop or handle like any other Focus, and is visually quite different, but it is a Focus. Mine’s Stealth Grey incidentally .

Just a couple of thoughts (pure speculation!). I agree it’s quite possible that Motorbase could build a MK4 Focus and badge it as an RS. As has been pointed out already the 2019 season cars were restyled and rebadged ST’s which themselves were obviously built to NGTC rules so any link is in reality rather tenuous; it’s more marketing than anything. Also, there is a precedent. There have been both MK7 and MK8 RS badged Fiesta WRC cars but no actual RS Fiesta since the MK3 RS1800.... Or, is it possible that the reporter simply confused the ST and RS badges?

It does seem strange to build a brand new MK3 Focus at this stage, unless they only need one new car (which may have been partly built?) or there is another good reason not to use the current shape. Interesting!

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by RS67

Drive one, I guarantee you'll think differently.

F*** yes. Like my VXR drives nowt like a "standard" Astra. But it is an Astra.

My point which may be lost is that none of the BTCC cars shares much with its road going equivalent. The bodykit on the current Motorbase car looked more like the bodykit on the road going RS than the standard car but what else changed? Nowt as far as I know.

And the other point is the RS is one heck of a drive.

Completely unrelated to this I just learnt Pirtek has taken on new motor racing sponsorship in the States (specifically Brad Keselowski's No. 2 Penske Ford in NASCAR Cup series). Jordan had put round a story Pirtek were out of motorsport. Not so!

[Maxpower1]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

F*** yes. Like my VXR drives nowt like a "standard" Astra. But it is an Astra.

My point which may be lost is that none of the BTCC cars shares much with its road going equivalent. The bodykit on the current Motorbase car looked more like the bodykit on the road going RS than the standard car but what else changed? Nowt as far as I know.

And the other point is the RS is one heck of a drive.

Completely unrelated to this I just learnt Pirtek has taken on new motor racing sponsorship in the States (specifically Brad Keselowski's No. 2 Penske Ford in NASCAR Cup series). Jordan had put round a story Pirtek were out of motorsport. Not so!

Pirtek Europe I think is what Jordan was referring too

[RS67]

Originally Posted by mjcapri

It is a Focus though. It doesn’t go, stop or handle like any other Focus, and is visually quite different, but it is a Focus. Mine’s Stealth Grey incidentally .

Just a couple of thoughts (pure speculation!). I agree it’s quite possible that Motorbase could build a MK4 Focus and badge it as an RS. As has been pointed out already the 2019 season cars were restyled and rebadged ST’s which themselves were obviously built to NGTC rules so any link is in reality rather tenuous; it’s more marketing than anything. Also, there is a precedent. There have been both MK7 and MK8 RS badged Fiesta WRC cars but no actual RS Fiesta since the MK3 RS1800.... Or, is it possible that the reporter simply confused the ST and RS badges?

It does seem strange to build a brand new MK3 Focus at this stage, unless they only need one new car (which may have been partly built?) or there is another good reason not to use the current shape. Interesting!

The original cars were completely rebuilt with all new panels for the RS. Making it an RS allowed the use of the rear diffuser which would have increased down force and subsequently rear grip compared to the ST they had previously. Hence the model used isn't just a marketing tool.
As there is no mk4 RS model, it would be impossible to homologate such a car, they can only chose to homologate from a manufacturers current range or with special permission from TOCA and agreement from the other teams they might be allowed to run a model not yet in production but which the manufacturer has unveiled and will go on sale during that season.
As the RS went out of production in 2018, it doesn't make sense to build new cars which will only have a 3yr elligible lifespan, when the mk4 could have been used and got a full 5yr use out of the cars.

Oh and mines Shadow Black.

[medius]

Looking on the database, the three freshest Focii where built in '17 (replacing the scrapped Davenport chassis),' 15 and '14. So all this talk of a new car is just fresh builds incorporating all the tweaks they've discovered since they were originally built. Honda and BMW have moved the game onwards since the mid 2010s.

Just an evolution rather than the revolution done predicted. Don't forget Rory is bringing 12months of FK2 knowledge across if he has signed as touted.

[mjcapri]

Originally Posted by RS67

The original cars were completely rebuilt with all new panels for the RS. Making it an RS allowed the use of the rear diffuser which would have increased down force and subsequently rear grip compared to the ST they had previously. Hence the model used isn't just a marketing tool.
As there is no mk4 RS model, it would be impossible to homologate such a car, they can only chose to homologate from a manufacturers current range or with special permission from TOCA and agreement from the other teams they might be allowed to run a model not yet in production but which the manufacturer has unveiled and will go on sale during that season.
As the RS went out of production in 2018, it doesn't make sense to build new cars which will only have a 3yr elligible lifespan, when the mk4 could have been used and got a full 5yr use out of the cars.

Oh and mines Shadow Black.

Not a Nitrous Blue between us, that’s good going!

In the case of the MK3 I get what you’re saying about the RS diffuser providing a technical advantage (and a link to the road car), but there’s still nothing stopping them building a MK4 ST and badging it as an RS. As no RS has yet been released it would be purely marketing in this instance, but they could do it if they so wished (personally I’d just call it an ST but it’s not up to me!).

I agree with you in regard to eligibility, it would make sense to use the current model for this reason alone, unless they can’t/don’t want to build three new cars at this time.

[mjcapri]

Originally Posted by medius

Looking on the database, the three freshest Focii where built in '17 (replacing the scrapped Davenport chassis),' 15 and '14. So all this talk of a new car is just fresh builds incorporating all the tweaks they've discovered since they were originally built. Honda and BMW have moved the game onwards since the mid 2010s.

Just an evolution rather than the revolution done predicted. Don't forget Rory is bringing 12months of FK2 knowledge across if he has signed as touted.

Surely though evolution would take them to a MK4 Focus? It just seems strange to build brand new cars based on the MK3 which was replaced in 2018. I’m not saying you’re wrong as I really don’t know any more than you do, time will tell!

[Alfisti]

I really do believe they will be Mk III. And I really do believe they must therefore be building fresh as they've worked out a significant improvement that can be made from doing so - which is why the Moffats are building two new "old" Infinitis.

The Mk IV is me wondering out loud. Could Dave have got Ford on board, they'd then want to promote metal in the showrooms etc. RS steams many peoples glasses up, bosh, badging exercise. Maybe in the run up to full fat RS road car have a "teaser" - an RS line that has some of the full fat cars costume jewellery without the warp drive. The ST line vaguely warm Fiesta and Focus sell well for example, as do S line Audis.

[DaviePHD]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Maybe in the run up to full fat RS road car have a "teaser" - an RS line that has some of the full fat cars costume jewellery without the warp drive. The ST line vaguely warm Fiesta and Focus sell well for example, as do S line Audis.

That is my hope, I seem to remember the old S2000 Civic being called a Type R when a 5 door version wasn't available in that shape. I don't think that there would be an issue calling a new Focus an "RS" before a showroom version was available.

I've always thought that Motorbase could and should have won at least one title by now, they've bought (and latterly built) good cars and had some good drivers too.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The Mk IV is me wondering out loud. Could Dave have got Ford on board, they'd then want to promote metal in the showrooms etc. RS steams many peoples glasses up, bosh, badging exercise. Maybe in the run up to full fat RS road car have a "teaser" - an RS line that has some of the full fat cars costume jewellery without the warp drive. The ST line vaguely warm Fiesta and Focus sell well for example, as do S line Audis.

I feel there might be some merit in this thought.
Every indication is that Ford will be releasing a Mk.4 RS, and that it will likely be a 400hp+ hybrid car. Clearly that does not fit with the NGTC design, but there still exists the possibility to build a Mk.4 and put an RS badge on it.

Take the 2019 Focus chassis 'MBP-004-2014'. It was an ST in 2014, and became an RS in 2018. Yet the ST and RS are totally different cars in road going form.
The same is true of the FK2 Civics. 'NGTC-12-004' started life as a standard Civic in 2012, in 2016 the same car was a Type-R.

Did either of these cars have to be re-homologated?

Does the M-Sport nomenclature of the 1-Series' mean anything other than a badge? It's a trim level in the road-going car, and none of the trim is carried over to the NGTC build.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I feel there might be some merit in this thought.
Every indication is that Ford will be releasing a Mk.4 RS, and that it will likely be a 400hp+ hybrid car. Clearly that does not fit with the NGTC design, but there still exists the possibility to build a Mk.4 and put an RS badge on it.

Take the 2019 Focus chassis 'MBP-004-2014'. It was an ST in 2014, and became an RS in 2018. Yet the ST and RS are totally different cars in road going form.
The same is true of the FK2 Civics. 'NGTC-12-004' started life as a standard Civic in 2012, in 2016 the same car was a Type-R.

Did either of these cars have to be re-homologated?

Does the M-Sport nomenclature of the 1-Series' mean anything other than a badge? It's a trim level in the road-going car, and none of the trim is carried over to the NGTC build.

Except BTCC is going hybrid soon so are they ahead of the game?

[antnee]

The M-Sport on the BMWs allows them to use the better bumpers. The switch from ST to RS on the Mk3 Focus allowed for aero improvements. The road car bits which are taken over to the BTCC car are general bodyshell and engine layout - the ST & RS share the same engine layout.

The more I think about it, the less it seems that it will be a Mk4 RS. Unless Ford are unveiling it at Geneva Motor Show (5th March) and there is some level of Ford backing for this season.

[MagicBoy]

Originally Posted by RS67

Drive one, I guarantee you'll think differently.

Doesn't apply to the BTCC car. Had they started off with an RS, 99% of the interesting bits that make an RS drive like an RS would have ended up in the leftovers pile, replaced with NGTC spec parts.

The BTCC "RS" shells started probably started off as a poverty spec 1.6 Zetec back in 2012 that was stripped, dipped etc then NGTC'd. Then got new RS headlights and bumpers bolted on a couple years ago.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I feel there might be some merit in this thought.
Every indication is that Ford will be releasing a Mk.4 RS, and that it will likely be a 400hp+ hybrid car. Clearly that does not fit with the NGTC design, but there still exists the possibility to build a Mk.4 and put an RS badge on it.

Take the 2019 Focus chassis 'MBP-004-2014'. It was an ST in 2014, and became an RS in 2018. Yet the ST and RS are totally different cars in road going form.
The same is true of the FK2 Civics. 'NGTC-12-004' started life as a standard Civic in 2012, in 2016 the same car was a Type-R.

Did either of these cars have to be re-homologated?

Does the M-Sport nomenclature of the 1-Series' mean anything other than a badge? It's a trim level in the road-going car, and none of the trim is carried over to the NGTC build.

As I wrote before if and when a mk4 RS comes to market, it won't be for another 5yrs minimum as they are always in the last couple of years after the cars have been facelifted. Just because the press make lots of noises about a 400bhp hybrid RS Focus, it doesn't mean it will happen, Ford are happily denying any plans for such a car. Hybrids are happening now to plug the gap to going fully electric, in 5yrs time, the Focus, if it is still around could be fully electric.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by RS67

As I wrote before if and when a mk4 RS comes to market, it won't be for another 5yrs minimum as they are always in the last couple of years after the cars have been facelifted. Just because the press make lots of noises about a 400bhp hybrid RS Focus, it doesn't mean it will happen, Ford are happily denying any plans for such a car. Hybrids are happening now to plug the gap to going fully electric, in 5yrs time, the Focus, if it is still around could be fully electric.

https://uk.motor1.com/news/239453/ford-focus-st-rs-spied/amp/

[mprmke]

The MK4 ST has been on sale for a while now.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

https://uk.motor1.com/news/239453/ford-focus-st-rs-spied/amp/

That article is dated April 2018. The same month as the mk3 Focus including the RS ceased production. That will be a photo of an ST testing before it was launched which was several months after the mk4 hit the market, the give away being it is on mk3 Focus ST alloys.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by RS67

That article is dated April 2018. The same month as the mk3 Focus including the RS ceased production. That will be a photo of an ST testing before it was launched which was several months after the mk4 hit the market, the give away being it is on mk3 Focus ST alloys.

Gee I didn’t see the date.......thanks for pointing it out. My point was the ST was testing nearly 2 years ago whereas an RS hasn’t been seen so in all likelyhood is at least 2 years away. Additionally if the hype around the electric Mustang is anything to go by the next RS may well be Electric ? Anyway true to form thanks for pointing out the obvious