Dutch 240z race car

[Marcius]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

There sure were two 240 Z race cars in the Netherlands in 1973 (for Ernst and Janssen); there were massive problems with parts and reliability; only the last part of the season both cars were entered and raced.

It will take more than a view pages to mention all the problems encountered in building and racing the Z's in Holland.
The Z's were the only cars still on carburettors, 2 valves per cilinder and no cross-flow cilinderhead (intake and exhaust on different sides).
These parts were available in Japan but they couldn't be convinced to send them to Holland.
The rear brakes were converted from drum to diskbrakes. Pictures of the diskbrakes were combined with some japanese text, photocopied several times and added to the homologation papers.

[Marcius]

Originally Posted by haman132

I think the Rob Jansen cars where all left hand drive one's

Yep, that's right!

After the Monte Carlo Rally (1972?) somebody in Japan decided four or five workscars should stay in Europe. Nobody knows why but that's how these exotic rallycars ended up in Zandvoort, Holland. The evidence of the pressence of these cars in Zandvoort had been on the roads for several weeks because all the cars still were on spikes !
One of the cars was collected by Tony Fall who drove a rally-Z in England and needed the car for spares.
Another was sold to a MD who allready had several nice cars like a Tomaso Pantera and the Honda S800 Rob Janssen drove (in 1969?).
I am not sure anymore but I think another car was sold to Miroux, a belgian Datsun dealer and racingdriver.
At least one of the cars was changed into a racing car and driven by Rob Janssen.

[ben240z]

Originally Posted by Marcius

Yep, that's right!

After the Monte Carlo Rally (1972?) somebody in Japan decided four or five workscars should stay in Europe. Nobody knows why but that's how these exotic rallycars ended up in Zandvoort, Holland. The evidence of the pressence of these cars in Zandvoort had been on the roads for several weeks because all the cars still were on spikes !
One of the cars was collected by Tony Fall who drove a rally-Z in England and needed the car for spares.
Another was sold to a MD who allready had several nice cars like a Tomaso Pantera and the Honda S800 Rob Janssen drove (in 1969?).
I am not sure anymore but I think another car was sold to Miroux, a belgian Datsun dealer and racingdriver.
At least one of the cars was changed into a racing car and driven by Rob Janssen.

You seem to have some inside information from the Janssen camp. Were you with Rob at the time or is this info you have collected over the years?
It would be very interesting to here more
Ben

[PZR]

Marcius,
Thank you for your very interesting posts. It sounds like you have some knowledge of these cars - maybe through personal experience? I would be interested to hear about that.

You mention the 'home made' photocopy homologation of the rear disk brakes in Europe; In fact the full ( official! ) homologation of the four-pot, vented rear brakes was achieved by October 1973 ( JAF GT-010 V-21 & FIA 3023 17/15V ), and they were being used in Japan well before this on circuit racing cars. There is no doubt that they were needed sooner than this for the rally cars, but the main focus of the Works rally team in Japan was always the Safari, and The Monte, RAC and a few other top international events were seen as secondary objectives. The first *official* major Works outing for the 240Z rally cars was the 1970 RAC Rally, but just a few months later they actually won the 1971 E.A. Safari Rally - which was an amazing achievement. According to Japanese sources, this almost stopped Works rally development of the 240Z at that point ( objective achieved! ).

There was always a lack of funds, parts and logistical support for the Works team - so they were doing their best with limited resources. Nobody should underestimate the difficulties they faced in building their cars in Japan and coming to Europe, Africa and Australasia with them. They had a massive company behind them, but it never really gave them its full support. They did amazingly well when you take into account what restrictions they faced. Personally, I admire those men very much indeed.......

Originally Posted by Marcius

After the Monte Carlo Rally (1972?) somebody in Japan decided four or five workscars should stay in Europe. Nobody knows why but that's how these exotic rallycars ended up in Zandvoort, Holland. The evidence of the pressence of these cars in Zandvoort had been on the roads for several weeks because all the cars still were on spikes !
One of the cars was collected by Tony Fall who drove a rally-Z in England and needed the car for spares.

Actually, there were quite a few ex-Works cars ( particularly ex-Monte recce and rally cars ) that stayed in Europe, and several of them made their way to the UK. Tony Fall never actually owned the car you mention, and it certainly was not cannibalised for spares until after he had almost destroyed it! It is true that spare parts were in short supply, and the rate of attrition took the Works staff somewhat by surprise. Some cars were destroyed on relatively 'minor' events that were effectively seen as practice for the 'majors'. No doubt the Works team were set back by circumstances such as these.

Originally Posted by Marcius

Another was sold to a MD who allready had several nice cars like a Tomaso Pantera and the Honda S800 Rob Janssen drove (in 1969?).

I think our fellow member 'z-spec' knows this particular car very well.....

Originally Posted by Marcius

I am not sure anymore but I think another car was sold to Miroux, a belgian Datsun dealer and racingdriver.

I don't believe the Miroux brothers ever owned a genuine ex-Works rally Z (?). Certainly the period photos of their cars that I have seen show cars that were not ex-Works examples.


Nice to have you participating in this thread. I would like to hear more from you.

[z-spec]

Originally Posted by Marcius

Yep, that's right!

After the Monte Carlo Rally (1972?) somebody in Japan decided four or five workscars should stay in Europe. Nobody knows why but that's how these exotic rallycars ended up in Zandvoort, Holland. The evidence of the pressence of these cars in Zandvoort had been on the roads for several weeks because all the cars still were on spikes !
One of the cars was collected by Tony Fall who drove a rally-Z in England and needed the car for spares.
Another was sold to a MD who allready had several nice cars like a Tomaso Pantera and the Honda S800 Rob Janssen drove (in 1969?).
I am not sure anymore but I think another car was sold to Miroux, a belgian Datsun dealer and racingdriver.
At least one of the cars was changed into a racing car and driven by Rob Janssen.

This is i think the right information exept from the year , i personel think this was 1971 , two cars got Dutch registration plates in 1971 and where entered by Datsun Nederland in several WRC rallys , by jan 1972 the FIA banned the use of glasfibre body pannels like doors bonnet and bootlid , and 1971RAC rally was the last entry from Datsun Nederland with a 240z in rallys , there is a promotion film from the RAC with this car .

[haman132]

the modelcar is ready





more pic's here

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=916020

[Frank de Jong]

A small article in Autovisie 47/1971:
"Janssen and Dik will start at the RAC rallye. They drive a Datsun 240Z which has been prepared with lots of troubles in Rob's Zandvoort garage. At the TAP rallye their rallye 240Z was badly damaged by another competitor;parts from this car were used to transform Rob's circuit car (with which he drove some races this season in the " special" category) into a rallye car for the British round.
Early december they will also take part in the adventurous Ethiopian Highland rallye.

[ben240z]

Originally Posted by haman132

the modelcar is ready





more pic's here

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbul...d.php?t=916020

that looks lovely. There is still a transfer missing!!!!! It goes on the doors just above the door handles
PM me your address and I will send you an original. I am not sure how you would shrink it down to fit but I am sure that you will find a way

[PZR]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

A small article in Autovisie 47/1971:
".........They drive a Datsun 240Z which has been prepared with lots of troubles in Rob's Zandvoort garage. At the TAP rallye their rallye 240Z was badly damaged by another competitor;parts from this car were used to transform Rob's circuit car (with which he drove some races this season in the " special" category) into a rallye car for the British round........."

Something not quite adding up there....

First of all, Janssen/Dik drove '67-54-RU' on the 1971 RAC Rally, which was actually an ex-Works rally car - originally registered on the Japanese 'carnet plate' of 'TKS 33 SA 987' - which had been driven by Tony Fall / Mike Wood on the 1971 TAP Rallye.

Janssen/Dik had an accident on the 1971 TAP Rallye whilst they were driving '67-58-RU', which also was an ex-Works rally car - originally registered on the Japanese 'carnet plate' of 'TKS 33 SA 988'.

The mention of "...Rob's circuit car...." being prepared for rallying ".....with lots of troubles..." is slightly odd. Janssen/Dik used 'TKS 33 SA 987' ( on Dutch registration '67-54-RU' after the Japanese carnet expired ) on the 1971 RAC Rally......... So it was already a rally car.

At what point in 1971 was one of these two ex-Works rally cars prepared as a "circuit car"? I think one of them eventually went on to do some circuit work, but in 1971 both cars were still very much as they were in their Works rally guise.

Is this a clue to some ( Dutch ) registration plate switching, or is it a red herring from a journalists' mistake?

z-spec, care to comment?

[haman132]

more pic's from the Rob Jansen's time

[kurtiejjj]

Take a look on this website: http://www.datsuncherry.ch/pressinf.htm

It shows some very interesting tuning brochures. It even has some of Janspeed online! As well as information from the German Datsun tuning firm 'Nippon Speed Car'. Very interesting stuff as well on the photos page.

[Frank de Jong]

Originally Posted by PZR

Something not quite adding up there....

At what point in 1971 was one of these two ex-Works rally cars prepared as a "circuit car"? I think one of them eventually went on to do some circuit work, but in 1971 both cars were still very much as they were in their Works rally guise.

The car was entered and raced by Rob at the Easter races (in the libre/sportscar/prototype race) early in 1971.

[PZR]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

The car was entered and raced by Rob at the Easter races (in the libre/sportscar/prototype race) early in 1971.

That emphasises the point I was trying to make: It seems extremely unlikely that such a car could be circuit-style modified 'from being a rally car' ( and an ex-works rally car at that ) and then back into an ex-works rally car, inbetween the 1971 Monte Carlo Rallye and the 1971 TAP Rallye.

Both the ex-works rally cars ( both were ex-1971 Monte Carlo Rallye connected ) that Datsun Netherlands were involved with during 1971, and which were driven by both Janssen and Fall ( both cars on the 1971 TAP, and then Janssen on the 1971 RAC in the ex-Fall 1971 TAP car ) were busy being rally cars during 1971. The story that one of these cars became a circuit car temporarily early in 1971 seems extremely unlikely. Even if it was true, you'd have to say that it must have still looked a bit like a rally car whilst it was on the circuit, and then still a little bit like a circuit car when it took part again in a rally........

For me, it seems clear that wires got ( are still getting? ) crossed, and that there are more cars in this story than people originally seemed to believe. But there are only two ex-works rally cars in the story as far as I can tell, and they were both doing serious international rallies during 1971. The Janssen 1971 circuit car must surely have been built up from a standard road car, despite the stories.

Anyone care to comment on that?

[Frank de Jong]

I wouldn't say the circuit car would have been extensively modified (unlike the 1972 car); it might be that Janssen just entered his rallye car on racing wheels. The libre/sports/prototype class (with no GT class!) was really a very thin field of very different cars and classes (and no championship).

[z-spec]

PZR , I think the car #20 with the white wheels in post #60 , must be one of the works rally cars regarding to the early style body , rally style windscreen washers and early type over fenders , this is probably 1972 ?

[PZR]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

I wouldn't say the circuit car would have been extensively modified (unlike the 1972 car); it might be that Janssen just entered his rallye car on racing wheels. The libre/sports/prototype class (with no GT class!) was really a very thin field of very different cars and classes (and no championship).

Yes, I agree. And the photos that I have seen of the car at that time seem to confirm that it was in full rally mode, but simply stripped of most of its stickers and logos.

In which case, I wonder why the talk of work in Janssen's workshop and all the 'difficulty' in circuit preparation.......? Surely the truth would be that - during 1971 - he did very little to prepare the car to a circuit-bias spec? 1972 was a different story.

Originally Posted by z-spec

PZR , I think the car #20 with the white wheels in post #60 , must be one of the works rally cars regarding to the early style body , rally style windscreen washers and early type over fenders , this is probably 1972 ?

Yes, I agree. It has enough tell-tale details to point to it being the ex-Works rally car that we think it is, and in the 1972 season circuit racing guise that would be quite difficult to reverse.

And we agree as to which of those two ex-1971 Monte works cars it actually started life as, yes?

[Frank de Jong]

I'd say the #20 car is from 1972 - it raced in exactly that form in the 1972 Euro GT championship. So the 1971 car might have been even less modified...

[haman132]

car number 20 pic are from advertising of 1973 magazine's

[Marcius]

Originally Posted by z-spec

PZR , I think the car #20 with the white wheels in post #60 , must be one of the works rally cars regarding to the early style body , rally style windscreen washers and early type over fenders , this is probably 1972 ?

The nr.20 car is one of the first racecars because the "real" racecar had Bilstein shockabsorbers instead of Koni's.

The first Z Rob ever drove on Zandvoort (just for fun) was an original rally car. The only thing he took of were the extra lamps from the frontfender. Even the crashguard under the car was still fitted. The car was also still on roadtires (no slicks) and suffered from terrible body-roll and understeer which very suddenly changed in massive oversteer (especially in fast corners such as Scheivlak, Tunnel Oost en Bos uit).
I cannot recall wether they used a rally-car to change into a race-car or a normal roadcar. I do remember the cars they used for the racecars were completely stripped and built from scratch and I cannot imagine they used a rallycar for this purpose.

[haman132]

hoi Ben

found a for sale of your car
magazin nov.1978

and happy new year to all readers

[haman132]

here is an other article from the past

[phhok]

Originally Posted by ben240z

does anyone have any info on the dutch datsun 240Z that raced in the group 4/5 european sports car championship in the mid 70s. It was driven by Han Tjan and earlier by Rob Janssen. Janspeed were involved in preparing the car in 1976ish. Did you race against it? Did you see it racing? Have you any photos of it? All info gratefully recieved. cheers ben

Ben,
If you still wish more info of the childhood years of your ex works rally (race)
240z I can probably help you with details and foto's.
You can reach me also on my E-mail adres to write Dutch

[phhok]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

I wouldn't say the circuit car would have been extensively modified (unlike the 1972 car); it might be that Janssen just entered his rallye car on racing wheels. The libre/sports/prototype class (with no GT class!) was really a very thin field of very different cars and classes (and no championship).

you are right,there was nothing changed to that car apart from the tires.
He enterd that car for only one race to have some fun.
When his lap time,wish a rally car, was 1.47 the idee came to build a race car for the next season.
I have some foto's of that race with the rally lamps still on the car.

[PZR]

Originally Posted by phhok

Ben,
If you still wish more info of the childhood years of your ex works rally (race)
240z I can probably help you with details and foto's.
You can reach me also on my E-mail adres to write Dutch

phhok,
Ben's car is not an 'ex-Works' ( Nissan ) rally car, it is an ex-Janspeed car. It has a long and very interesting history ( which Ben is continuing in his competition use of the car ) but it is not an ex-Works Nissan competition car.

Your countryman ( also participating in this thread ) 'z-spec' is the owner of one of the genuine ex-Works 240Z rally cars that we have been talking about in some of Ben's thread.

[phhok]

Originally Posted by z-spec

Indeed Rob Janssen with codriver Jaap Dik did drive the Tap rally and also probably also the Acropolis rally with the same car , this became later a racing car .
I have spoken with Jaap Dik , but does any body know where to find Rob Janssen , is he still around ?

yes he is still around