[Tech Issue] Off throttle diffusers banned from Silverstone >

[luke g28]

Very difficult to measure an "absolute downforce" and thus tricky to enforce.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by luke g28

Very difficult to measure an "absolute downforce" and thus tricky to enforce.

I think there are ways round it if aerodynamic surfaces are fixed and suspension is passive but as the OP was suggesting allowing movable aerodynamics and active ride I'd say it was damn near impossible.

[Pingguest]

Lateral accelerometers are capable of measuring the amount of downforce, albeit some calibration is required. Lateral accelerometers are widely used for airbags and electronic stability control systems.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Lateral accelerometers are capable of measuring the amount of downforce, albeit some calibration is required. Lateral accelerometers are widely used for airbags and electronic stability control systems.

Strangely lateral accelerometers measure lateral acceleration and definitely do not measure down force, yes you can infer an estimate of the down force from the centripetal acceleration when cornering, which I guess is what you are suggesting. This would simply impose a maximum speed for any given corner when I would have thought the idea of limiting downforce would be to limit the actual downforce generated and then let the designer configure the suspension and weight distribution to achieve the fastest possible cornering speed with that level of downforce.

I have built a data logging system using a longitudinal and lateral accelerometer (the exact same type of MEMS accelerometer that are used in air bag systems as a matter of fact, so I do know how they work and how to use them) I ran it a few times in hillclimb, gave a very pretty trace of speed (by integrating longitudinal acceleration) and lateral G but it didn't and never would measure down force.

I am sure the teams are able to determine downforce from 1 millisecond to the next because they have the telemetry on suspension movement at all four corners of the car but it would be extremely difficult for this to be scrutineered sensibly to ensure teams stayed within the rules. If active suspension were allowed it might actually make it easier for the teams to monitor the forces for themselves since they could measure hydraulic pressure in the cylinders rather than suspension movement but I doubt this would make it any easier to police.

One suggestion that I have heard which is very simple but on closer inspection is fraught with difficulties, this is to limit the stiffness of the suspension. For example if I put (say) 1000kg of weight on your car when it is stationary the floor (or the plank if we keep one under this scheme) must touch the ground, this would mean of course that you couldn't then run more than 1000kg of downforce without bottoming out the floor on the track. It's clean it's simple and I can't imagine it would ever work because that's just not how you design a racing car!

While to directly limit downforce might sound like a good idea I don't believe it is practical to do so. I am afraid we need to indirectly control downforce by controlling other aspects of the car design.

[luke g28]

Also if you have a max downforce limit, a max engine power limit, minimum weight limit, same tyres. How are you going to differentiate between different cars?

[neiltb]

give each team a different colour pot of paint

[ASCII Man]

Except the go faster red paint, that's exclusively for Ferrari.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by luke g28

Also if you have a max downforce limit, a max engine power limit, minimum weight limit, same tyres. How are you going to differentiate between different cars?

I only propose a downforce limit, not a maximum allowed engine output, etc. I always opposed the introduction of standardized tyres and think the minimum weight should be abolished. However, with a downforce limit teams should still be able to reduce drag.

[strider]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

As much as I am getting a little bored looking at Sebastian's finger after winning yet another race, I feel that reducing the amount of exhaust blown over the diffuser by 90% does appear to look like the championship is being manipulated..

It only affects qualifying, not the race.

Now that we have KERS, DRS and a pretty variable factor in the tyres, the chances of overtaking are much greater than they have ever been and in Valencia there will be two DRS zones, as there were in Montréal.

I rather like the idea of Vettel having to fight for a win by overtaking people, not just cruising away at the front from lights to flag.

[TF110]

Fingerboy will have to work for wins? boo-hoo, cry a river! That's what happens when your car bends the rules, pun intended. Newey is going to be at the front regardless, his wings still flex. I see this as an equal playing ground now. No one can complain about unfair advantages in this area. Williams might be towards the front now. Guessing here. And FWIW- Super Aguri came up with the ddf, their workers took it to Honda(Brawn) Toyota and Williams.

[strider]

Fingerboy? I like that. Deserves to rank with Teflonso and Britney. Everyone will know who you mean, but it's not racist or any other rubbish like that!

[browney]

Originally Posted by TF110

Fingerboy will have to work for wins? boo-hoo, cry a river! That's what happens when your car bends the rules, pun intended.

......unless you do it with the double decker diffuser or an F-duct of course.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by strider

Fingerboy? I like that. Deserves to rank with Teflonso and Britney. Everyone will know who you mean, but it's not racist or any other rubbish like that!

How about "The Finger", THF for short!

[Son of Jor-El]

Originally Posted by wnut

How about "The Finger", THF for short!

Or better still TFF - That Finger Fellow, or other unprintable variations!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Son of Jor-El

Or better still TFF - That Finger Fellow, or other unprintable variations!

I quite liked the double meaning of "the finger".

[Sodemo]

Probably the same reason mass dampers were banned in the middle of the 2006 season, in order to give Ferrari a leg-up.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Probably the same reason mass dampers were banned in the middle of the 2006 season, in order to give Ferrari a leg-up.

In fairness Sodemo, the mass dampers were banned as moveable ballast.
Which I think they were, but it was unfortunate timing.
How long did Reno run them before they were banned?

[Lennon]

I think that changing the rules in the middle of the champ is just insane. Everytime someone comes with a great idea to be faster, FIA bans it to "save costs". Well... what is F1 there for anyway if every development is cut off to save money? What's the fun developing stuff then?

In the future no one is gonna creat a single thing, because other teams will have to spend money to acquire it (obviously).

Charlie Whiting knows every team secret, why he does not stop things he consider illegal at the very beginning?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Lennon

I think that changing the rules in the middle of the champ is just insane. Everytime someone comes with a great idea to be faster, FIA bans it to "save costs". Well... what is F1 there for anyway if every development is cut off to save money? What's the fun developing stuff then?

In the future no one is gonna creat a single thing, because other teams will have to spend money to acquire it (obviously).

Charlie Whiting knows every team secret, why he does not stop things he consider illegal at the very beginning?

Agreed.

The mid season bans reflect poorly on the whole sport.
One problem is that a team can only protest something when they know about it, otherwise it is up to Charlie's discretion.
Teams also sit on their protests until they know a negative result will affect their opposition as much as possible. The tyre width saga a few years ago was just such an issue. Mass dampers - I don't know.

[JamesH]

Can I just confirm something which isn't clear to me from the comments above.

What has been deemed against the rules is the blowing of exhaust air over the diffuser WHEN OFF THROTTLE, by some engine map/control mechanism? So blowing the exhaust over the diffuser is OK at all other times?

Or has using the exhaust airflow for aero purposes at any time been outlawed?

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Can I just confirm something which isn't clear to me from the comments above.

What has been deemed against the rules is the blowing of exhaust air over the diffuser WHEN OFF THROTTLE, by some engine map/control mechanism? So blowing the exhaust over the diffuser is OK at all other times?

A point I made earlier in the thread...... and blown diffusers have never been outlawed in previous years, so there is no excuse that the rule makers are just catching up with the ingenuity of the teams. Apparently new rules (which don't apply this year) will mandate the position of the exhaust exits, which will remove the problem that the rule makes would have trying to explain why a "moveable aero device" has been permitted on throttle but not off throttle... Doesn't help them this year though!

To me it is quite clear that the rule makers don't want the championship effectively won by mid season, which would be the case if Vettel wins the next two or three races. In practice I think Vettel needs four more wins races to guarantee the championship.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by phoenix

A point I made earlier in the thread...... and blown diffusers have never been outlawed in previous years, so there is no excuse that the rule makers are just catching up with the ingenuity of the teams. Apparently new rules (which don't apply this year) will mandate the position of the exhaust exits, which will remove the problem that the rule makes would have trying to explain why a "moveable aero device" has been permitted on throttle but not off throttle... Doesn't help them this year though!

To me it is quite clear that the rule makers don't want the championship effectively won by mid season, which would be the case if Vettel wins the next two or three races. In practice I think Vettel needs four more wins races to guarantee the championship.

It seems to me that it more to do with the very unnatural state of the engine producing large quantities of exhaust gases off throttle, rather than any effort to slow the RB down.

Exhaust gas when throttle on - natural state of affairs, so do what you like with it; exhaust gas whilst off, completely unnatural, and not allowed.

Whether they should have done it mid season I don't know, but to be honest, I don't think it will make much difference given how much of a lap is spent off throttle . i.e not a lot.

[phoenix]

It may seem to be an "un-natural state", but in rallying turbo engines do the same off throttle. Ban it for what it is, not for what it isn't. Saying that a moveable aerodynamic device is involved and using that as a reason is nonsense, since the same 'devices' are involved in blowing the diffuser on-throttle.

From the comments made by McLaren they expect Red Bull to lose out the most, I would say...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Saying that a moveable aerodynamic device is involved and using that as a reason is nonsense, since the same 'devices' are involved in blowing the diffuser on-throttle.

Agreed. Both methods are technically illegal, but it's all got out of hand just lately. All banned for next year though.

Originally Posted by phoenix

From the comments made by McLaren they expect Red Bull to lose out the most, I would say...

It all depends on how it affects the balance of the car. Renault stand to lose the least in that respect, since the exhaust operates in the central part of the car, as opposed to the rear ends of the other cars that run the system.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Agreed. Both methods are technically illegal.

But only this year? And after 7 races? Why are the FIA Technical people so slow to react? They have been around since 1983!!!!

Originally Posted by Marbot

but it's all got out of hand just lately

Or - more simply - it no longer suits the show/the management/other teams....