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Old 8 Sep 2014, 07:45 (Ref:3451184)   #51
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They have a different driver as steward each race (and they are all professional experienced racing drivers themselves....unlike most people commenting on the topic). Why do you think they would be consistent?
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 07:59 (Ref:3451185)   #52
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The danger of these kind of stewarding decisions, like refeering tackles in football, is that there is inevitable inconsistency ( despite being less snap judgements). I thought it was stretching the definition of 'forcing another car off track' to say Magnussen did that, as he didn't actually touch Bottas, did he? Perhaps he did and I missed that one. Either one, it's true Bottas found himself on the outside, but would he have done that due to his own braking? It's this that I hope was taken into account in the decision.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 09:22 (Ref:3451199)   #53
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The decisions on Magnussen and Button were certainly inconsistent. I can only put the reason Magnussen got penalized down to his 'previous' and the fact he's a novice. In other words his transgression this weekend, if you even believe it to be a transgression, wasn't viewed in isolation. Button on the other hand was given the benefit of the doubt.

Of course there's another way of looking at it. Magnussen is Danish. Button is British and a friend of Derek Warwick
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 10:27 (Ref:3451206)   #54
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If the past two weeks of silliness did affect the mental state of Hamilton and Rosberg, it certainly seemed to tip the balance in Hamilton's favour. His driving was faster and more error-free than many of his past performances under pressure. Meanwhile Rosberg made two major and very uncharacteristic errors (no conspiracy theories here). However it will take four more Ham-Ros one-twos to put Hamilton in the lead, and things are unlikely to be as consistent as that. Of course by the "law of averages", the next bit of Mercedes unreliability should hit Rosberg, which would ease Hamilton's path. But the law of averages is a fallacy and in reality it could equally be either of them that catches it next time.

Great to see Team Willie getting their act together. No mistakes (apart from Bottas' bad start) and no bad luck. It must have been a sweet moment for Massa to score so much higher than the team that sacked him. And Bottas showed his real worth in that recovery drive.

Riciardo continues to show up Vettel. He seemed to be the master at selling a dummy to the car in front. In reality, modern racing etiquette does favour that approach: the defending driver can only make one move, but the attacking driver can jink around as much as he likes. I'm afraid the only good thing about Vettel this year is that he has managed to avoid a public tantrum while being firmly put in the shade by his grinning team-mate. I've been surprised by that. Will it last?

The most over-hyped team in F1 had a miserable day. But if they weren't so over-hyped and deified, it could have just been written off as a once good team having a bad day in a bad season.

McLaren had a very good qualifying (courtesy of Mercedes power) and a fair-to-middling race. I thought the penalty for Magnussen was harsh. JB's dice for the lower points was entertaining. Likewise Perez.

I don't think we'll be seeing EJ doing a grid walk again. I felt embarrassed for him, just watching it, though obviously not as embarrassed as he felt. It just goes to show that it's not as easy as Martin Bumble and DC make it look. It's not often that we see EJ lost for words. Anyway, the whole grid-walk/interview thing has become very stale so perhaps this will motivate the Beeb to re-work that segment of the show.

Danil Kvyat was the first victim of the engine restriction penalties. We'll have to get used to seeing a lot more of that during the rest of the season. It's a pity when it happens, but it's a necessary thing. Without engine restrictions, we would have reached the point where every driver would be using a new engine every race and the costs would be unsupportable. It would be unthinkable to just say "You've run out of engines so you can't race any more" so the penalty system is the best compromise. Engine restrictions, Saturday night curfews and fuel restrictions have all shown that F1 designers can do what they said was impossible when they are forced into it. This year will see rather more engine penalties than desirable. Next year there will be very few, as the engine people really get on top of the task.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 10:53 (Ref:3451214)   #55
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I don't think we'll be seeing EJ doing a grid walk again. I felt embarrassed for him, just watching it, though obviously not as embarrassed as he felt. It just goes to show that it's not as easy as Martin Bumble and DC make it look. It's not often that we see EJ lost for words. Anyway, the whole grid-walk/interview thing has become very stale so perhaps this will motivate the Beeb to re-work that segment of the show.
Couldn't agree more. I had to leave the room... I couldn't stomach it... pure car crash TV. I don't know why the BBC had him doing it... and as you quite rightly point out, the grid walk as a concept is well past it's sell by date. The questions are annoying for the drivers at a crucial point of their race preparation and we rarely [if ever] learn anything from them.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 13:29 (Ref:3451237)   #56
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Jordan struggles with his coherency generally and seems intent on layering on his strangled sense of humour on top of that. That said, I did think he did better than expected actually.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 14:49 (Ref:3451247)   #57
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I will say it again, I think that at least 10 minutes of that pre-race build up could be devoted to showing brief GP2 highlights and they have a swift discussion about it, otherwise us as viewers are subjected to at least half an hour of conversation that they just had half an hour previously!
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 15:19 (Ref:3451253)   #58
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The Sky people should do magazine programs for GP2/3. Fill up that channel a bit more.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 17:10 (Ref:3451276)   #59
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Magnussen inviting Bottas to cut the chicane is ok to me, given the shape of that stupid chicane.

But I agree with the penalty because Magnussen blocked Bottas before braking. Bottasmoved to the inside line, and Magnussen reacted to block him.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 17:33 (Ref:3451282)   #60
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They have a different driver as steward each race (and they are all professional experienced racing drivers themselves....unlike most people commenting on the topic). Why do you think they would be consistent?
Because it's part of a judicial system and the judiciary should be consistent or justice is not being done. It's unprofessional...

Good stewarding/refereeing and a good judiciary comes from a reasoned consistent application of the rules with a sense of fair play (without bias) in the competitive nature of the sport.

Without that it can becomes manipulative, unjust and can be argued to be an abusive use of authority. When that happens people turn off a sport or competition because it ceases to become a sport played under fair rules of conduct.

Any motorsport competition can be run with consistent ruling across an event if a basic set of fair principles and interpretation of the regulations governing driving conduct is made and applied equally to all competitors and situations at the event. It is not difficult, and can be done in a reasonable and fair way that leaves all competitors knowing exactly what is expected and how the rules will be applied, and the decisions made will reflect that.
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 17:43 (Ref:3451288)   #61
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I will say it again, I think that at least 10 minutes of that pre-race build up could be devoted to showing brief GP2 highlights and they have a swift discussion about it, otherwise us as viewers are subjected to at least half an hour of conversation that they just had half an hour previously!
Not if you record it and watch it later - I just fast-forward to the green flag lap......
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Old 8 Sep 2014, 17:51 (Ref:3451290)   #62
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I watch Sky purely for Martin Brundles commentating. Crofty gets way too excited and quite often gets it wrong, then is corrected by Brundle.
Teds Notebook is a must, even if its to watch cameraman Pete spying the females.
This GP, Sky didn't do a grid walk, they stayed with Team Willy showing you the 45 minute build up to the green lights, quite fascinating.
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 07:08 (Ref:3451409)   #63
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Because it's part of a judicial system and the judiciary should be consistent or justice is not being done. It's unprofessional...

Good stewarding/refereeing and a good judiciary comes from a reasoned consistent application of the rules with a sense of fair play (without bias) in the competitive nature of the sport.

Without that it can becomes manipulative, unjust and can be argued to be an abusive use of authority. When that happens people turn off a sport or competition because it ceases to become a sport played under fair rules of conduct.

Any motorsport competition can be run with consistent ruling across an event if a basic set of fair principles and interpretation of the regulations governing driving conduct is made and applied equally to all competitors and situations at the event. It is not difficult, and can be done in a reasonable and fair way that leaves all competitors knowing exactly what is expected and how the rules will be applied, and the decisions made will reflect that.
I doubt that's possible. Even 'proper' law is inconsistent, simple because there are many judges, each with differing opinion, even though they have a strict set of rules to apply.

If something as important as criminal law is inconsistent, what chance for motorsport?
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 10:21 (Ref:3451443)   #64
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The principle that must be emphasised isn't consistency, it's proportionality. Consistency then follows intuitively from proportionality.

The FIA's position went from nanny-state to giving the drivers more scope to fight it out. What the latter entails should have been fully communicated to the stewards at Monza and should be put into practice in the races ahead so as to encourage an agreed culture of when to penalise and when not to penalise and what penalty is applied for a particular infraction. Establish a culture, a reasonable standard of consistency will intuitively follow.
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 13:39 (Ref:3451511)   #65
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Can we just take a moment to reflect on when Crofty said, as the cars lined up for the grid, that Hulkenberg might have held the key to the race....
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 13:44 (Ref:3451515)   #66
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Can we just take a moment to reflect on when Crofty said, as the cars lined up for the grid, that Hulkenberg might have held the key to the race....
But after Hulkenberg couldn't find it, that nasty Toto Wolff told Rosberg it was down the escape road at the first chicane.
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 15:07 (Ref:3451550)   #67
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I doubt that's possible. Even 'proper' law is inconsistent, simple because there are many judges, each with differing opinion, even though they have a strict set of rules to apply.

If something as important as criminal law is inconsistent, what chance for motorsport?
I am a member of a national motorsport judicial system and I can do it, and the people under me can do when properly trained, and get it right 95-100% (depends on the person) of the time so how can it be impossible?

Accepting mediocrity is a path to a mess. What we see in F1 is far below what is possible...

What Paradise City said is correct.

Last edited by Teretonga; 9 Sep 2014 at 15:13.
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 15:25 (Ref:3451553)   #68
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I am a member of a national motorsport judicial system and I can do it, and the people under me can do when properly trained, and get it right 95-100% (depends on the person) of the time so how can it be impossible?

Accepting mediocrity is a path to a mess. What we see in F1 is far below what is possible...

What Paradise City said is correct.
So, how can a motorsport system work consistently, when countries legal systems cannot.

I feel you may be overestimating your 'correctness' percentages. Or perhaps you should go in to law! Or train the F1 stewards.

I personally don't have a problem with the current decisions being made in F1. What goes around comes around.
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 15:33 (Ref:3451556)   #69
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So, how can a motorsport system work consistently, when countries legal systems cannot.

I feel you may be overestimating your 'correctness' percentages. Or perhaps you should go in to law! Or train the F1 stewards.

I personally don't have a problem with the current decisions being made in F1. What goes around comes around.
I'd be happy to train the stewards...
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 15:45 (Ref:3451565)   #70
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But after Hulkenberg couldn't find it, that nasty Toto Wolff told Rosberg it was down the escape road at the first chicane.
He huffed and he puffed and eventually Rosberg was blown down the escape road at turn 1. Don't cross the big bad Wolff.
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Old 9 Sep 2014, 16:18 (Ref:3451571)   #71
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He huffed and he puffed and eventually Rosberg was blown down the escape road at turn 1. Don't cross the big bad Wolff.
He had two goes at it.
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