Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10 Dec 2005, 17:04 (Ref:1481272)   #1
Osella
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,197
Osella should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
engine question

will any obsolete 3Litre V10 F1 engines get 'recycled' as sportscar motors one day?
Osella is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Dec 2005, 17:23 (Ref:1481280)   #2
Nizro
Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9
Nizro should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That's most unlikely.. actually it's more like a direct "no"...

The Formula 1 V10-engines are pushed to the extremes of what is possible. Bringing 900 bhps from 3 litres without any charging system is an extreme accomplishment, and it requires technology on a level that is not yet stable enough for any sort of endurance racing. The engines themselves are so very stressed, that what you see today in Formula 1 is the limit with the current level of technology.
Also, a lot of development goes into having a just somewhat stable engine, and this development will eventually go down into extremely high prices for these engines.

So... "no", I don't think that we'll see these engines go down into sportscar racing, and even if they do, it will be quite some time, 'cause I reckon having a stable engine redlining at 19,000 RPM will require a huge amount of research to be usefull. And now that it's no longer part of F1, who will put their time into this? But, I think that we will se an extreme advancement of the V8 engines in the next years, so who knows?
Nizro is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 09:07 (Ref:1485982)   #3
im8457
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 54
im8457 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osella
will any obsolete 3Litre V10 F1 engines get 'recycled' as sportscar motors one day?
A Judd engine, the GV4 V10, is a F1 based and is used in some LMPs. Lola, Dome and Riley & Scott have all used them at one time.
im8457 is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 12:55 (Ref:1486070)   #4
knighty
Veteran
 
knighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Essex
Posts: 1,403
knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by im8457
A Judd engine, the GV4 V10, is a F1 based and is used in some LMPs. Lola, Dome and Riley & Scott have all used them at one time.
The problem Judd have had for the past 5 years or so, is that the 4 litre V10 engine was too small in capacity, therefore had to rev the nuts out of it to get the power, about 630bhp over 10,000rpm I think - thats silly revs for an endurance engine, OK they had the odd 24hr win like at Daytona in 2001/2......but in short a 4 litre engine needs to rev very high and dosent have that much torque......then they stretched it to 5 litres and in my opinion its a much better engine, as proven by Pescarolo......the power is the same, but it makes the power at much lower revs - about 7000rpm I think......but the big gain has been in the increase in torque......which is what you need for pulling out of corners and hammering down the fast straights.......to answer the original question.......judd have proved that to make a decent sportscar engine from an F1 v10 motor you need a minimum of 5 litres.......stretch a modern-day F1 motor to 5 litres???.......absolutley no way .......if the ACO were to let standard or slightly stretched V10 motors into the LMP2 class that would be much more viable option.
knighty is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 14:19 (Ref:1486090)   #5
Tim Northcutt
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
United States
Indianapolis
Posts: 9,215
Tim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I believe ss_collins researched this and has made a compelling case for such a scenario...

Speaking of engines....

I'm still waiting for someone to either run a homologated GT2 engine (normally aspirated up to 4.0 L) in an LMP2, or better yet, for someone to take a WRC engine and drop it into an LMP2...like a Hyundai or a Subaru Turbo....

Both would seem to make good sense as being both cost effective as well as competitive...IMO
Tim Northcutt is offline  
__________________
Finally...

One American Open Wheel Series!
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 14:28 (Ref:1486091)   #6
ger80
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Germany
Birmingham
Posts: 1,710
ger80 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
That GT2 and WRC are not build to be part of the chassis. LMP engines are used to take force through the engine from the front to the rear of the car.
Maybe someone who knows what i mean could write it in real english
Sunday morning ....
ger80 is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 17:42 (Ref:1486152)   #7
JAG
Veteran
 
JAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Posts: 10,500
JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Personally I think the days of atmo engines are numbered in prototypes.

With state of the art turbo engines coming from AER and Cosworth, with better power/torque, fuel efficiency and driveability, why use a highly stressed F1 type motor?
JAG is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 18:52 (Ref:1486172)   #8
knighty
Veteran
 
knighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Essex
Posts: 1,403
knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
Personally I think the days of atmo engines are numbered in prototypes.

With state of the art turbo engines coming from AER and Cosworth, with better power/torque, fuel efficiency and driveability, why use a highly stressed F1 type motor?
You said it JAG - look back on the history of winners at lemans over the past 10 years, and the Turbo engines are the way to go......the last normally aspirated engine worth its salt was the 6 litre BMW V12......god knows why Judd went so long with the 4 litre.......

when I was at TWR race engines they had designed and built a V10 sports car engine in two capacities, 5 and 6 litre, they made an engine and dyno'd it, but did not find a backer - shame as it was a pukka piece of kit, as designed by Geoff Goddard.

I dont know the actual altitude distance, but the le-mans circuit is quite high up from sea level, so the air is thinner, and this really affects the power of normally aspirated engines - not so much turbos - I dont know the technical reasons why though - someone please educate me

as for subaru or hyundai WRC engines.....no way......you would be better off starting from scratch........

not all LMP1 & 2 engines are fully stressed.....the R8-V8 was, but most others run the A-frames, including the Judd V10, most prototype engines are termed "semi-stressed" whereby the engine takes some of the load but not all......I suspect this is why the new Audi V12 diesed is 90 degrees as the wider V-angle helps when fully stressing the engine.......as running extra A-frames with an already very heavy engine wil not help overall car weight
knighty is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 19:17 (Ref:1486180)   #9
vs346
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Greenland
Posts: 312
vs346 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by knighty
I dont know the actual altitude distance, but the le-mans circuit is quite high up from sea level, so the air is thinner, and this really affects the power of normally aspirated engines - not so much turbos - I dont know the technical reasons why though - someone please educate me
The highest point in Le Mans is only 134 meters above sea level. I'm not sure that's high enough to affect an atmo engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Mans
vs346 is offline  
__________________
Photojournalist
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 19:55 (Ref:1486194)   #10
Osella
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,197
Osella should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm also in need of education... Why couldn't a Judd motor be turbocharged? Is the layout of the 'big bits' of turbo and atmospheric powerplants fundamentally different?
Osella is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 20:37 (Ref:1486216)   #11
R59
Veteran
 
R59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Heard and McDonald Islands
Bedfordshire
Posts: 3,523
R59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridR59 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Since the original concept of this thread was whether the old 3L V10 F1 engines could find another use.

De-tuning (stressing) is always an option. I seem to remember the Asiatech V10's being made available "de-tuned" for various uses. Through the act of de- or should I say re-tuning, the max revs are probably dropped to about 10000, from 16000+, which will dramatically improve it's reliability/life, and consequently, the torque output of the engine will increase as the power is produced at fewer revs. Ultimate horsepower is reduced, but driveability is increased considerably.

As for turbocharging, why not. They'll require some uprated components most likely!!

Rob.
R59 is offline  
__________________
There is no substitute for cubic inches. Harry Belamonte - 403ci Vauxhall Belmont!!
A 700hp wayward shopping trolley on steroids!!
Quote
Old 18 Dec 2005, 22:02 (Ref:1486254)   #12
belt driven
Racer
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
United States
NE exurban ATL
Posts: 350
belt driven has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I thought that incremental reductions on rev limits would have have been a less costly way to slow F1 cars that developing brand new 2.4L V8's. What are(were) the bore/stroke ratios of F1 V10's? I am guessing that an F1 V10 is way oversquare to make much torque at 10000 RPM.

ger80, the term I have always heard is "stressed member." McLaren used such in Can-Am 35 years ago. Imsa GTP cars 20+ years ago did not. Ferrari 333SP's just after that time did. Some series have required that the chassis be a "roller" w/o the engine. Keep in mind that a stressed engine in an F1 car carries much less weight than a prototype sports cars.

Does anyone know of an engine structure/chassis failure prior to a catastrophic accident in decades?
belt driven is offline  
__________________
“You know you’re in trouble when the first person to get to you
after a wreck is carrying a beer” -Jimmy Horton, Talladega 7/25/93
Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
n00b question about the rotary engine Mike_Wooshy Racing Technology 6 3 Oct 2004 23:23
A question about the one engine rule. ralf fan Formula One 8 5 Mar 2004 22:05
Engine Question jhansen Formula One 2 2 Dec 2003 05:47
Stressed engine question? H16 Sportscar & GT Racing 4 27 Feb 2003 06:12
Arrows Engine question Mark F1 Formula One 6 8 Feb 2002 12:10


All times are GMT. The time now is 22:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.