RB predicts spins and surprises! and dangerous (merged)

[Super Tourer]

Time will tell I guess, one thing is that the teams are more technically advanced and have invested more in aero development and wind tunnels since that time - so progress should be faster.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by N I Tram

What's wrong with this? Surely the cars should be difficult to drive? If they are sliding around more, there'll be more mistakes, the cars will be more itnereting to watch, there'll be more changes of position, and results will have to be earnt much more. I'd see that as progress.

I agree but it's very early to draw any conclusions. The engineers will be earning their pay cheques this winter. Montagny's comments seem to verify that this is the case, at least for now:





(GMM -- Dec.15) A 2005-spec car 'slides -- a lot.'

The Frenchman said: ''What's it like to drive? Slippery!''

Montagny said the new aerodynamic code, offering less grip in a FIA-inspired bid to slow cornering speed, is 'really noticed' in medium speed corners. ''The rear also slides more,'' he added, ''which can be fun for the driver -- but it really slows you down.''

Meanwhile, the new one-tyre-for-qualifying-and-the-race rule will mean that the clear-cut task of driving 'flat out all the time' during grands prix is no more, Franck said.

[dantley]

after watching some great legends racing on sky last night from about 1978 i think its obvious what they need to do to bring back racing....

Make the cars properly driveable.

Loose downforse (by 60%)
Lengthen braking distances (standardise brake systems)
Increase mechanical grip.. Big sticky tires widen car +
Manual gearbox
No launch control
and big powerfull engines with rev limiters on.

This may seem abit silly but as written earlier the cars are to knife edge, with such small edge to the limit how are you supposed to find abit more to overtake, especially as they can't run close together.

Take formula for for example, if your following a guy whose exactly the same speed as you you can always push the limit that little bit further underbraking or carrying more speed into an apex to make the move and then sort it out after.

As low down as formula renault the racing is normally **** for the same reason as formula one (wheel to wheel racing)

The cars stop so quickly theres no real margine to be made braking late as everyone is already breaking at the absolute limit, so no real late lunges are that possble, and if you do go all out on the brakes and slide abit into the corner your buggered as the cars just snap on you..

Make them so there slower into the corners with longer braking distnaces but then you use your skill to control big bhp to get out the corner not just nail it an let the traction control take over, again advantage to be made up on control.. driver input contol..

Also an f1 car is no quicker than a GP bike in a straight line yet everyone says slow them down.. rubbish... let them do 240 / 250 mph, so what, if there not going around the corners as fast wheres the trouble if there not still doing stupid speeds only few metres before the apex of a corner where the issue.

I've been in motorsport all my life and nothing ****** me off more than these basically easy to drive cars, yes there quick but anyone could actually get around a lap in one, maybe not fast but so what, could anyway get around a lap in an ex mansell 1400BHP honda williams of about 1986.. doubt it..

These are very basic point ive made, in a simple way, but in my eyes its a simple quest to improve the sport and i think they keep looking again and again into the wrong areas..

[Glen]

Nobody ever raced with 1400bhp, or even 1000. Qualifying yes. I guess you could limp around in a turbo car by keeping it out of the boost, or turning it down - which is exacty how they were raced (admitedly for durability rather then drivavbility reasons).

Dantley - how can you say on the one hand that edgy cars are too difficult and then on the other that the same cars are too easy? I think you are pandering to the myth that TC and power steering = easy to drive, which is nonsense by your own admission.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Ant described it as like driving big formula ford,can it be that different?

YES!...I had a long chat to AD after Jerez...he was surprised so many teams mainly were running the old 2004 tyres and aero, (hence their 'false' faster lap times) But when Rubens, Kimi & Co tried the 2005 spec (much to Ants amusement) 'they' spun like tops!

Basically the relative lack of downforce combined with harder compound tyres that have to last the whole race will make the cars very differant! Also lock-ups will mean drivers will have to endure them race long and will suffer accordingly...This will be a championship that will play to the drivers with the most sensitivity and feel for their 'boots'

I guess that will lead to drivers having to be patient, nurse their tyres and if still 'in touch' having to put late braking and lunging to the end of the race?!

[dantley]

granted qualifying engines yes..

ok im following a myth... but look, take away some of the things that make the cars the way they are and you get better racing and reduced costs.

I know lads who have been in F1 cars in the last 4 weeks.. so i guess i dont know what im on about..

Its all about downforce.. that causes the issues and expense.

Change the rules as they have and within two years the cars will be just as quick again and millions will be spent by the teams getting them that way...

[Glen]

I didn't say you didn't know what you were talking about - only that you contradicted yourself. Either one statement or the other is accurate - but your assertion that the cars are simultaneously edgy and too easy to drive doesn't make sense.

[Kirk]

Glen: I believe the point he was trying to make was a simple one. Please don't read it differently. In '04 the cars were easier to drive compared to what could be in '05 and beyond.
IE. Loose downforse (by 60%)
Lengthen braking distances (standardise brake systems)
Increase mechanical grip.. Big sticky tires widen car +
Manual gearbox
No launch control
and big powerfull engines with rev limiters on.

[dantley]

thanks....

I know a fair bit about racing.. but i wasnt going into what i know who i know and who i dont.... etc etc, too many people on here lord there point of view..

Simple points written in simple terms were made following viewing F1 from the late 70's early 80's....

As said time after time on this site and others technolgy has ruined things, simplify what an F1 cars are allowed to be and it will produce better racing at lower costs, they keep changing the rules but is it going to get us anyway..

2005 rules do sound like an improvement especially if ant compared it to a FFord...

[dantley]

ok,,... edgy.. the limit is too knife edge, underbraking, with such small braking areas how can you expect to find an edge, double the breaking zones twice as much distance to be making a move, or get out of a move or control the braking, it sounds like in 2005 braking control will be more an issue rather than jumping on the anchers.

Knife edge.. the cars can't handle any real sort of a slide they carry so much speed into the corners they are are on the absolute edge the second you come off the brakes where as back in the day it was more about taking the car to the edge on the exxit of a corner on the power, two different styles or driving 2 differnt style of cars from two different eras but which bring the better racing.. the skill now a days is getting the car to apex buy carrying loads od spead in thereofre buggering up the guy with the impossible task of either following close or getting up the inside.

anyway.. i know what i mean even if i cant get it down..

They may be knife edge but there still easy to drive.

[Kicking-back]

I can't believe the car is easy to drive.

We're now in a period where it is harder than almost any point in F1's recent history for a rookie to jump in and be competitive.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

I can't believe the car is easy to drive.

We're now in a period where it is harder than almost any point in F1's recent history for a rookie to jump in and be competitive.

Easy, of course not. But it could be a good deal more difficult (as the pinnacle of racing should) is what many agree on.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Glen

Pit-stops will still be part of the race strategy, even though they won't be changing tyres, so the temptation to wait for the strategy to deliver race position will be even greater..

I agree - the one-tyre rule should go along with a refuelling ban (in fact, with a refuelling ban you'd automatically get harder tyres). Overtaking on the track please.

Originally Posted by Glen

The ideal would be for cars that are slower in the corners and have longer braking distances, but somehow are predictable and spectacular in their on-limit/over-the-limit behaviour. A car that snaps away so fast that nobody can save it is of no use for wheel to wheel racing - they need to make the limit exploitable without total loss of the race being the only likely consequence. If it could be the case that a difficult car means that a bit of sliding around will lose your position (or gain you a place if you get irt right) then that would be ideal - if the most likely outcome of getting the car sliding is an abrupt and unsavable trip into the tyres then no driver will elect to risk it.

Again I agree (though I would add that making a car slide a bit would be aided by TC ban ). Why is it that we all know what's needed and those in power don't!!

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

I still say it's very early days to make an informed view. What we have heard so far is some intial impressions from drivers who have had very limited running in largely hybred cars.

Two months more wind tunnel time will see designers claw back at least some of the downforce, I would warrant that the full spec 2005 cars will be different again to what the drivers have experienced so far. We heard it all before when drivers first drove on grooved tyres.

Thi is probably true too. I'm sure I've read that Ross Brawn is expecting the new cars to be quicker than the FIA had hoped due to the work of the aerodynamicists and engineers.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by krt917

Thi is probably true too. I'm sure I've read that Ross Brawn is expecting the new cars to be quicker than the FIA had hoped due to the work of the aerodynamicists and engineers.

This seems to always be the case, however, this time I don't anticipate that the teams ever catch up, as the aero changes will be more severe in coming years. [B]I'd like to see 2004 go down as the fastest F1 ever was..

[Marbot]

It now seems that if either Michelin or Bridgestone produce a tyre that is only slightly inferior to the opposition it will make a big difference during the race,here's hoping they both get it right.If Bridgestone get it right keep an eye on Minardi and Jordan, and watch Ferrari disappear.

[Marbot]

Additional thoughts on what it's like to drive a 2005 spec car from "Ant", read at www.f1racing.net It seems that the tyres will be the limiting factor,not aero or engine power,good news for lesser teams and Racing in general.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by dantley

ok,,... edgy.. the limit is too knife edge, underbraking, with such small braking areas how can you expect to find an edge, double the breaking zones twice as much distance to be making a move, or get out of a move or control the braking, it sounds like in 2005 braking control will be more an issue rather than jumping on the anchers.

Knife edge.. the cars can't handle any real sort of a slide they carry so much speed into the corners they are are on the absolute edge the second you come off the brakes where as back in the day it was more about taking the car to the edge on the exxit of a corner on the power, two different styles or driving 2 differnt style of cars from two different eras but which bring the better racing.. the skill now a days is getting the car to apex buy carrying loads od spead in thereofre buggering up the guy with the impossible task of either following close or getting up the inside.

anyway.. i know what i mean even if i cant get it down..

They may be knife edge but there still easy to drive.

You've just spent 174 words describing how and why modern F1 cars are more difficult to drive, and all you have to say at the end is that they are easy to drive. Surely I can't be the only one that considers that a complete contradiction? It is obvious that you can see in great detail how and why they are tricky and demanding - so why hang out with the sheep and then say they are easy?

[f1atic]

I think the level of "racing" will go up with the changes.
Drivers will have to be drivers - plan corners - brake earlier - control the trottle better.

The cars will not be so 'glued' to the track.

I am looking forward to a great season, personally.

Oh yeah, by the way, M$ took an early '80s F1 car around a track a couple of years ago. Upon climbing out of the car, he said, "That was exciting, and quite dangerous." What he was really saying was that it required more to drive when you have to use one foot for brakes and clutch, shift gears manually while driving with one hand on the wheel - in a turn - and all of that when the tires and aero-dynamics did little to stick the car to the track.

[Led ZeppF1]

I would happy to see a lot of spin an surprises. I hope its not dangerous.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by f1atic

Oh yeah, by the way, M$ took an early '80s F1 car around a track a couple of years ago. Upon climbing out of the car, he said, "That was exciting, and quite dangerous."

What he was actually saying was that is was "quite dangerous". He actually meant that the chassis was more dangerous if he crashed. Remember how the drivers feet was so far forward that you are guarenteed a break and remember how the survivial cell was not quite as strong as now.

No need to put words into TGF's mouth (who gets paid more $ than anyone else because he is better, but still races for fun).

[Jamie P-E]

Dantly,

I know what u mean mate. U know ur stuff fella

[Adam43]

I'm not sure you've helped Dantly's case there!

[Jamie P-E]

i knowwhat he ment

He is a very knowledgeable person

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Glen

You've just spent 174 words describing how and why modern F1 cars are more difficult to drive, and all you have to say at the end is that they are easy to drive. Surely I can't be the only one that considers that a complete contradiction? It is obvious that you can see in great detail how and why they are tricky and demanding - so why hang out with the sheep and then say they are easy?

Uhm not a contradiction at all...
They are easy to drive yes, within the limits.
But near or at the limit, they become unpredictable, as on a knifes edge...

So i don't see where the contradiction is.

[Marbot]

I think that what's trying to be said is that it's very easy to drive the car up to 99% of it's potential(for an f1 driver that is) but very difficult thereafter,and it's this ability to drive the car at 100% for as long as possible that is the key to the whole thing, and it's this that sperates TGF from everyone else.Read my sig.