[Team] Racing Point: What now for Force India

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Ah, the updated won't someone think of the children argument. Sorry but I'm not going to cure every decision made by what will happen to people. Should I shop at the small local store and support 3 or the big box store and support 25-30? Your argument falls apart when you actually think because no matter what people are going to lose jobs, it's an unsustainable model and life is change

So you can derive enjoyment from it then?

It's... funny?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Nononsensecapeesh

F1 needs Force India and smaller teams in General.

Does it really though? People say that a lot, but it's perhaps good to specify why.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Does it really though? People say that a lot, but it's perhaps good to specify why.

You need small teams because you can't populate an entire grid with big teams. If everyone is spending big money, then half of the grid is spending big money to do badly. That sort of thing traditionally doesn't last very long before they get a bit annoyed at spending that much to finish last. So they either leave (Toyota), or the income reduces due to poor results and they become a small team anyway (Williams). I can't think of any series where every team is considered a big team.

It's basic economics, and why not every company in the world can be the size of Apple, Amazon and Microsoft. Not everyone can be the 'winner'.

Now, you need the small teams more than ever because we no longer have the Minardi, Forti and Simtek teams coming in to prop up the back of the grid. The entry barrier to the series is too high now, so possibly entries are limited. So whilst losing teams before didn't matter, because there were others ready to take the spot, now it does because there isn't anyone to take it.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

So you can derive enjoyment from it then?

It's... funny?

At the rate Force India was going with being obstructionist in previous votes to allow payments to teams ahead of schedule and now wanting a bending of the rules for themselves. A stupid rule yes, but one they have used to their advantage before, so yes, you reap what your dumbass owner has sown. And I used to like Force India as the underdog team but they (VJ and occasionally team comments but mostly VJ) have become insufferable and honestly could not care any less if they are forced to fold.

As for the baseless argument of think of the jobs, first nothing I buy supports them so I have not contributed anything to their well-being, have you? Fly Kingfisher often, drink any of his liquors, buy water systems? No, then what have you contributed to helping them stay afloat. And if you actually think any of the people employed by the team wouldn't be able to find jobs, likely without having to relocate, is childish and frankly a baseless complaint. Please show ANY, even 1% of their employees, of their workforce who would be unemployed from closure of the team.

[GT6]

Because without the smaller teams the grid would be much smaller and attract lower numbers of people either at the circuit or on TV, as numbers dwindle so does the money and then F1 ceases to exist. Only a few teams can win races but no one wants to see races with only a tiny number of cars starting.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

You need small teams because you can't populate an entire grid with big teams.

How so? If you force the big manufacturers to enter 4 or 5 cars you're right back where we started. Looking at how many of the teams are already simply factory B teams that doesn't even seem too far fetched.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

How so? If you force the big manufacturers to enter 4 or 5 cars you're right back where we started. Looking at how many of the teams are already simply factory B teams that doesn't even seem too far fetched.

If you force the big teams to enter 4-5 cars, then when one decides they are leaving, you lose 25% of the grid and go from a healthy series, to a series which doesn't meet the minimum requirements to its own commercial contracts and sporting regulations. That method is 100% unsustainable as just one team leaving effectively kills the series.

Between 2008 and 2009, BMW, Toyota and Honda all left. Given the massive increase in costs in the last decade, there's no guarantee that if such a situation happened now, that the teams could survive after being handed over to private teams (which would make them small teams again...). So if they were entering 4-5 cars per team, then under that format, they would have lost 12-15 cars. All because the teams were spending huge amounts of money and not winning...a problem which would be further exaggerated if manufacturers were supplying 4-5 car teams.

Also, by putting the series in such a situation where a big team leaving kills the series, you completely destroy the political power balance. Now any team can hold a knife to the throat of the series, knowing that if they leave, you need to suddenly find 5 cars. That doesn't sound too healthy.

So yes, you do need the small teams. That's why literally every series in the entire world has them. When WEC tried without them, they had to pretty rapidly run back to them when everyone left. Those teams with the 3 cars had quite an impact when they were no longer there.

[Racer65]

Originally Posted by GT6

Because without the smaller teams the grid would be much smaller and attract lower numbers of people either at the circuit or on TV, as numbers dwindle so does the money and then F1 ceases to exist. Only a few teams can win races but no one wants to see races with only a tiny number of cars starting.

Funny thing is people complain about series with grids of 10 cars or so but in F1 the coverage shows less cars than that other than for a couple of minutes at the start.

[Adam43]

And variety is nice too.

Yes, technically F1 can survive without them and doesn’t need them, but it’s better they are there for variety’s sake and strength in numbers. A team like Force India and its past guises to a greater or lesser extent have added to the pleasure of watching F1.

[BSchneiderFan]

The bottom line is that, as in all competitive sport, someone has to be last. Smaller, more modestly funded teams (for whom motor racing is the raison d’être) are more likely to put up with that than megabucks manufacturers (see Toyota et al as mentioned above).

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

And variety is nice too.

Yes, technically F1 can survive without them and doesn’t need them, but it’s better they are there for variety’s sake and strength in numbers. A team like Force India and its past guises to a greater or lesser extent have added to the pleasure of watching F1.

I'd argue it can't survive without them and does need them. Yes, it'll survive 2-3 years without them, but not any longer than that. Technically a human can survive without oxygen short term. Give it a few minutes or so.

Just look at the collapses of BTCC, WEC, ALMS, CCWS etc when the teams all left and nobody could replace them. Series were either bought/folded or had to do dramatic changes to survive. BTCC has learnt the lesson and now caters for the small teams quite significantly.

Be proactive, not reactive. And don't build yourself into a situation where the only possible long-term outcome is a sudden collapse.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

How so? If you force the big manufacturers to enter 4 or 5 cars you're right back where we started. Looking at how many of the teams are already simply factory B teams that doesn't even seem too far fetched.

No to take away from prior comments on this topic. The large teams want competition. Or actually... they want the certain air of competition. They want to run (and win) in a race full of other cars that have different names and different colors. It gives your team some level of legitimacy when you win! Of course they also work behind the scenes (and sometimes publicly) to keep the smaller teams under their thumbs. "B teams" is just another way to accomplish all of this. Different names and colors, but really just a lesser version of the team that is supposed to win.

Originally Posted by Racer65

Funny thing is people complain about series with grids of 10 cars or so but in F1 the coverage shows less cars than that other than for a couple of minutes at the start.

Unfortunate, but true. Which of course speaks to the lack of real competition within the sport. Which is a big issue of course.

Richard

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If you force the big teams to enter 4-5 cars, then when one decides they are leaving, you lose 25% of the grid and go from a healthy series, to a series which doesn't meet the minimum requirements to its own commercial contracts and sporting regulations.

I agree with that, but at the moment the situation is that the private teams that are not factory B teams are on the verge of collapse, with the possible exception of McLaren. Even with the current expensive engine formula the only teams that have folded have been private teams and we gained a factory team. If the factories want to dominate F1 as much as you suggest they do, why not give them complete free reign? If it explodes, we can just start again. F1 will never die unless it gets banned.

So instead of the private teams we would have 4 or 5 cars each from the manufacturers. Sort of ironically it would then be even more about individual driver skill since there would be more good drivers in the fastest cars. And since the factories will be forced to build many more cars costs can come down as well. You could also stipulate a minimum amount of cars like now so manufacturers will be incentivized to make sure enough rival manufacturers join to fill the grid. Ahum, anyway.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, I do enjoy the smaller teams if only for variety's sake. But I feel sometimes it's necessary to remind people that some clichés don't necessarily hold true (anymore). When someone just flatout says 'we need small private teams' without saying why my trigger finger starts itching. Sorry for the mostly off-topic hypothetical.

[Akrapovic]

If the situation is such that the small teams are all on the verge of collapse, and the big teams leaving causes a problem, then the solution is not to kill off the remaining small teams, and give the big teams more power to the point of having so much that one leaving would cause a violation of FOMs commercial contracts.

I appreciated the point about driver skill, and for fans it might work, but the Toyota and BMW board rooms don't consider that. It wouldn't stop a massive and sudden collapse of the series upon the next diesel scandal.

We need small teams and we need private teams because without them you have a grid of about 4 teams. If there were more big teams wanting to be in F1, they'd be here now. So if you then say each team needs 4-5 cars, then when Mercedes and Renault leave (which they will eventually), you're up the unpleasant creek without a paddle. They are most certainly, 100%, definitely, without a doubt, a requirement to the long-term stability of the series. Given the current topic, I don't think this is very off topic or requires an apology - given the lack of small teams, the situation of Force India is pretty tied in with it right now.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

If the situation is such that the small teams are all on the verge of collapse, and the big teams leaving causes a problem, then the solution is not to kill off the remaining small teams, and give the big teams more power to the point of having so much that one leaving would cause a violation of FOMs commercial contracts.

Good point, but I would argue that those contracts can be renegotiated. There's currently a constant power struggle going on, if we take the manufacturers on their word that they know what's best for F1 and let them 'loose' so to speak to prove that theory who knows what might come of it? With well negotiated terms beforehand of course. Note: I don't think this is very likely to ever happen.

I appreciated the point about driver skill, and for fans it might work, but the Toyota and BMW board rooms don't consider that. It wouldn't stop a massive and sudden collapse of the series upon the next diesel scandal.

We need small teams and we need private teams because without them you have a grid of about 4 teams. If there were more big teams wanting to be in F1, they'd be here now. So if you then say each team needs 4-5 cars, then when Mercedes and Renault leave (which they will eventually), you're up the unpleasant creek without a paddle. They are most certainly, 100%, definitely, without a doubt, a requirement to the long-term stability of the series.

Perhaps. But private teams also get bought and sold all the time, pretty much as frequently as the big teams come and go. Only McLaren and Williams are 'classic' teams and they're both not doing so well. What I'm saying is, F1 is famous for being famous so people will always want to join as long as that's the case. I'm 100% positive FI will be bought out and renamed by some new owner because there will always be people who want to be in F1. And I think that goes a lot for factories too. Some people draw the comparison to Le Mans and LMP1 but as much as I hate it, LMP1 is not F1 in terms of marketing value, exposure etcetera. So let's say Mercedes and Renault leave, would there not be two other manufacturers standing in the wings you think?

[djr81]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Good point, but I would argue that those contracts can be renegotiated. There's currently a constant power struggle going on, if we take the manufacturers on their word that they know what's best for F1 and let them 'loose' so to speak to prove that theory who knows what might come of it? With well negotiated terms beforehand of course. Note: I don't think this is very likely to ever happen.

I desperately hope this will never happen.

The manufacturers are being spoken of as a block. There are, however, three (Perhaps four) distinctly different levels/models of involvement.
You would separate Honda and Renault and make a distinction between them and the other two. MB and Ferrari have much the same level of involvement and funding but for my 10 cents worth Ferrari and "knowing what's best for the sport" should never be used in the same sentence. (I am not saying you did, by the way)

Much of the interest in F1 used to be the diversity and the random improvements/one off good performances of the smaller teams. That is now gone. Gone because the available funding and required levels of expenditure do not allow anyone that is not a factory outfit to compete.

This year it FI is struggling, last year it was Sauber. If it wasn't for their state ownership it would be McLaren next. And why? Because there isn't enough money left after the first three of four teams have had their fill. Distribute it more evenly and the lower ranked teams can compete better and survive better. The good ones may even prosper, which is how it should be.

[Moneyseeker]

Joe Saward reporting that it is believed that Lawrence Stroll paid the Force India salaries this week. ...

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[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Joe Saward reporting that it is believed that Lawrence Stroll paid the Force India salaries this week. ...

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Wonder how that has been allowed, as apparently the offer he made had to be withdrawn due to some complications with Indian laws and other make lawyers rich complications.

I highly doubt we will see anything change with the team through administration and it end up as Stroll Racing in the end. And hopefully Claire and the rest end up with egg completely coating their face in the next round of LM payout schedules for being blindly pigheaded and wanting the cash they have not earned. FI earned the cash and only BE's greed made they able to block it. Guarantee somewhere in the legalese of the name change means no money next season and management gets some of the seized money for his daughters to buy another bauble. Now I guess it's for LM to buy another media outlet.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Wonder how that has been allowed, as apparently the offer he made had to be withdrawn due to some complications with Indian laws and other make lawyers rich complications.

A link to this would be appreciated.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

I highly doubt we will see anything change with the team through administration and it end up as Stroll Racing in the end. And hopefully Claire and the rest end up with egg completely coating their face in the next round of LM payout schedules for being blindly pigheaded and wanting the cash they have not earned. FI earned the cash and only BE's greed made they able to block it. Guarantee somewhere in the legalese of the name change means no money next season and management gets some of the seized money for his daughters to buy another bauble. Now I guess it's for LM to buy another media outlet.

An explanation of what you are trying to say would be appreciated. Some of it doesn't seem to make sense.


And this article from the BBC throws some light on why the three teams are not happy with the proposals about the changes to the ownership of Force India. It's not just about the money. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/45026461

[BSchneiderFan]

Hmmm. I’m not really sure I believe that Renault, McLaren and Williams are really being obstructive purely for the health of the sport. Call me a cynic.

[Akrapovic]

Williams blocked it due to not wanting a two tier system, but also said they'd consider being a Mercedes B-Team if they had to. I don't buy it, sorry.

[BSchneiderFan]

Quite. Sauce for the goose and all that.

[Mike Harte]

That's not what they are saying in reality; they acknowledge that they are looking out for their own interest, primarily.



Their objection is that, from what they know that is going on behind the scenes, and to which we are not privy, it would appear that Mercedes are considering using what is left of of Force India to become a satellite team. And their concern is that if this trend is allowed to continue, it will put them out of business, because they cannot compete under those conditions.


They also have concerns that, off the track, Mercedes and Ferrari are acting as connected parties and that this is not beneficial for the sport.

[peebee2]

One thing for sure, if Mr Stroll has paid the wages, there has to be something in it for him.

[chillibowl]

it might be a moot point that Williams and Mclaren are making (this ship for satellite teams has already sailed) but nevertheless, i find myself agreeing with their sentiment.

along with Red Bull, these are the only teams with the clout to stand up to the manus and personally i think they deserve more support from the fans in this....surely most of us agree that the manus hold too much control as it is.

the one thing i really dont understand is why Renault is taking issue with this.

surely as a manufacturer they are looking to lock up suppliers for themselves and the more parts they can sell and thus defer the costs of their own works program the better.

if they feel strongly about this then they should advocate for a lower engine cost formula. rather they could work towards eliminating the conditions (high costs) that make running a satellite team a viable option.

but they are not going to do that. selling engines and parts is far too profitable.