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View Poll Results: As the title of the thread suggests - Which was better?
Porsche 917/917L/917-20 20 66.67%
Porsche 956/962 10 33.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 16 Jun 2010, 09:57 (Ref:2713063)   #26
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Originally Posted by KA View Post
I agree it's maybe a head v heart thing- I'd guess it's also very tied in with your own personal memories and nostalgia.

As John and Davyboy said, in purely practical terms, the 956/962 is now the more effective racing machine, in the same way that improvements in technology have made the R15 and 908 more effective than either, but the 917 probably edges it as an icon of it's era.

Whichever is your favourite though, they're probably two of the most important racing cars ever- the 917 as one of the ultimate expressions of what was possible under the regs of the time, and the 956/962 because it really was the backbone of the sport during one of its' great periods- the car that was raced by everyone from the factory and Joest to Antoine Salamin and Tim Lee-Davey
Sounds about right on all counts KA.

I think the other point to consider related to your last passage might also be that the more 956/962 derivative was a very successful car in privateeer hands than the 917 was.

RLR, Joest, Kremer and Brun all won races with the more recent cars but I can only think of pukka factory B teams that won with 917's like Salzburg etc

Anyone able to expand on this?
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 14:43 (Ref:2713205)   #27
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
Sounds about right on all counts KA.

I think the other point to consider related to your last passage might also be that the more 956/962 derivative was a very successful car in privateeer hands than the 917 was.

RLR, Joest, Kremer and Brun all won races with the more recent cars but I can only think of pukka factory B teams that won with 917's like Salzburg etc

Anyone able to expand on this?
I can't expand the list above but I want to add another point here. The 917 was purposely built for Le Mans while the 908 was built for the Targa, Nürburgring and roundy, cornerful circuits
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 14:53 (Ref:2713211)   #28
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When I remember the 956/962 two paint schemes of my childhood spring to mind. First off the Rothmans scheme. Most and widely known perhaps. But the other for me is the Jägermeister Porsche that ran under Bellof/Stuck. From this car I had quite a few small models as a kid . Unfortunately, all them matchbox and similar became binned a long time ago
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 15:52 (Ref:2713236)   #29
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When I remember the 956/962 two paint schemes of my childhood spring to mind. First off the Rothmans scheme. Most and widely known perhaps. But the other for me is the Jägermeister Porsche that ran under Bellof/Stuck. From this car I had quite a few small models as a kid . Unfortunately, all them matchbox and similar became binned a long time ago
Would that be this one?



It has recently returned to the track after a long lay-off.
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 16:00 (Ref:2713240)   #30
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Would that be this one?



It has recently returned to the track after a long lay-off.
Yeah it is !

Thanks XRS
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 16:19 (Ref:2713245)   #31
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It also features here http://www.groupcracing.com/pages/RMU-Classic-Clip1
and

http://www.groupcracing.com/pages/RMU-Classic-Clip2
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 19:48 (Ref:2713335)   #32
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Mmmmm lovely, thanks for those clip links!! Lot of cars out there from C1, GTP and C2.

Quick couple of off topic questions:

What is the jade green C1 car, looks like the front end of an LC2 Lancia but the rear looks strange?

Secondly, there appears to be a white GTP car with PPG on the front sounding like it's got a Ford or Chevy lump in the back? Is it some kind of Spice model?

On topic, the Jagermeister 962 looks fab as to be fair does the Joest car. But what happened to the Shell 1988 car that ran at Le Mans a couple of years ago?
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Old 16 Jun 2010, 19:52 (Ref:2713339)   #33
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I'm a child of the eighties so the 956/962 was all that I knew for some time. After a proper Porsche education I became aware of many more models that made my heart skip a beat. The 917 is like a piece of art, but so is the 956. I have spent countless hours drooling over them. The 917 is a different type of porn to the 956. One has curves that don't quit and a soundtrack that is out of this world, the other is rougher and makes me want to pull her hail.

My heart tells me 917, but my brain says 956.
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Old 17 Jun 2010, 07:48 (Ref:2713562)   #34
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Apparently a new book on the 956 was launched at the recent Le Mans.Title is Esquisses de Performance by Reynald Hezard.Anyone able to add anything more on how to obtain it in England? It is printed in French and English ,is 400 pages with 1000 illustrations covering all the chassis and their colour schemes.He had earlier done a book on the 917 which is now out of print and a copy is for sale on Amazon at present for £174!! Ian.
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Old 17 Jun 2010, 13:12 (Ref:2713694)   #35
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Quick couple of off topic questions:

What is the jade green C1 car, looks like the front end of an LC2 Lancia but the rear looks strange?
#60?

The result describes it as a 'Cheetah' driven by Erich Richenbcher from Switzerland. A bit of a search turned up this- the ROC 002-Cosworth, which was only seen a couple of times in 1991- Le Mans and Magny-Cours

http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-06-23-037.jpg

Looks like the same car? Not sure why it's running as a 'Cheetah' though- I've always associated the Cheeetah name with the Chuck Graemiger-run Aston Martin -engined car that ran 1984/5-ish. (think there might have been a Cosworth-engined car before that, '83-ish?)
http://i88.servimg.com/u/f88/12/78/87/27/john_s10.jpg
I vaguely remember the ROC, but don't know the story behind it, and what connection it had to the earlier car? Anyone?
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Old 17 Jun 2010, 16:26 (Ref:2713797)   #36
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Ah thanks KA!

A Cheetah? Crikey!! As you say I associate that name with the cars from the 80's (I also believe there was a Cossie engined car as well 82/83ish?).

When I saw a Cheetah on the results sheet from this Spa race I didn't get it because I didn't see any Cheetah's in the clips.

Clearly this green car isn't an original one (well it looks nothing like one of those anyway) and must be some hybrid special such as the ROC may have been? But as you say how come it's allowed to be called Cheetah when there ia/was already a car by the same name?

It definitely looks like a Lancia LC2 at the front doesn't it? Wasn't there some re-hash of one of those at some point by Giovanni Mussato?

Oh dear i'm taking us further off topic!!!!

Hey Ian, that French book sounds absolutely mega, everyone keep your eyes peeled for this one, it's obviously a must have.
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Old 18 Jun 2010, 09:44 (Ref:2714223)   #37
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956 sketches of performances

Hi 956 enthousiasts !

There are several ways to get Reynald Hezard's latest release in Great Britain.

1/ you can order it directly at the printing company
SPEED/LE MANS RACING
9 rue du Port
72000 le Mans
France
telephone + 33 243 47 06 80
clientele@lemans-racing.com
Price 49.90 € + postage

2/ you can visit our booth at the Le Mans Classic event in July. Reynald Hezard is often there and ready to dedicate copies.

3/ Many racing books shops reserved copies. You might find it at your favorite dealer's.

Allow me to draw your attention as well on the forthcoming jewel of Le Mans Racing printing company:
24 hours racing encyclopedia. Let's discover all about this 3-volume bible about the most famous race of all on this website www.encyclopediedes24heures.com

I hope I could be of any help.
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Old 18 Jun 2010, 13:34 (Ref:2714306)   #38
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Ah thanks KA!

A Cheetah? Crikey!! As you say I associate that name with the cars from the 80's (I also believe there was a Cossie engined car as well 82/83ish?).

When I saw a Cheetah on the results sheet from this Spa race I didn't get it because I didn't see any Cheetah's in the clips.

Clearly this green car isn't an original one (well it looks nothing like one of those anyway) and must be some hybrid special such as the ROC may have been? But as you say how come it's allowed to be called Cheetah when there ia/was already a car by the same name?

It definitely looks like a Lancia LC2 at the front doesn't it? Wasn't there some re-hash of one of those at some point by Giovanni Mussato?

Oh dear i'm taking us further off topic!!!!

Hey Ian, that French book sounds absolutely mega, everyone keep your eyes peeled for this one, it's obviously a must have.
Thinking about it, the ROC-Cosworth that appeared a couple of times in '91, and which I'm pretty certain is the Jade Green-coloured car in the Spa clip, might well have been designed by Chuck Graemiger who did the earlier Cosworth & Aston-engined Cheetahs. Could that be the reason for the name change? (I've also got a vague suspicion the ROC project might have had a change of name when it was 'current' in the early 90's?)

...but that's heading well and truly off-topic....
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Old 18 Jun 2010, 15:18 (Ref:2714349)   #39
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The ROC was originally the SGR - Saco Graemiger ROC. Then some backers pulled out, Fred Stalder took overall control, renamed it and kept Graemiger on for a redesign.
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Old 19 Jun 2010, 10:47 (Ref:2714657)   #40
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The ROC was originally the SGR - Saco Graemiger ROC. Then some backers pulled out, Fred Stalder took overall control, renamed it and kept Graemiger on for a redesign.
Thanks- Paul Chudecki's book Aston Martin V8 Race Cars has a chapter on the Cheetah-Aston and mentions that at the time of publication (1990) Graemiger was working on a 3.5-litre F1-engined car which must be the SGR/ROC

Reading that chapter, Graemiger certainly didn't have much luck with his backers- apparently both the earlier G603-Cosworth and G604-Aston projects ended in the courtroom after problems with the people financing the projects....

Anyway, that's been an interesting diversion into the various Chuck Graemiger Group C projects, we now return you to the originally-scheduled Porsche thread

An interesting question (And one probably worth a thread in its' own right) was raised on another forum recently- how many different sponsors' liveries appeared on the 956/962 over the years? Bearing in mind the number of teams who ran them in Group C and IMSA (including Japan, the domestic German DRM/Supercup series and Interserie) it's probably going to be huge- well into 3 figures?

Last edited by KA; 19 Jun 2010 at 10:52.
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Old 21 Jun 2010, 09:10 (Ref:2715546)   #41
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millions?

If you include 962s in your records, you can well add an extra 0.
as far as 956 are concerned, there are quite a bunch, I may look for a precise answer.
If you think about every different liveries, I counted 478 in Hezard's book, because there's always something special for each race.
If you think in term of sponsors, you can probably reduce by two, there are at least 72 different combinations for the Rothmans livery.

Last edited by Racing girl; 21 Jun 2010 at 09:38. Reason: adding things.
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Old 21 Jun 2010, 11:38 (Ref:2715625)   #42
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That doesn't surprise me- the 956/962 family must be one of the most extensively raced cars in the history of sportscar racing- within the prototype category at least (If you look at GT racing, I daren't even contemplate the number of 911 variants that must have been raced internationally....).

As a rough starting point, according to Wikipedia, there were 28 956's built, with a 29th chassis built by Richard Lloyd's team, and 91 factory-built 962s- and that's before you get into the assortment of replica and modified 962 chassis built in-house by the likes of the Kremers, Richard Lloyd, John Thompson, Fabcar, Brun
etc

Just trying to recall the teams who ran the 956/962 in Europe-

Porsche factory team
Kremer
Brun
Joest
Richard Lloyd
Obermaier
John Fitzpatrick
Tim Lee-Davey
Almeras
Walter Lechner
Jochen Dauer
ADA Engineering
Gebhardt
Heinz-Jurgen Dahmen
Charles Ivey
Schuppan
etc

...and then there are all the IMSA teams, and the Japanese....

http://962.com/registry/956_962/index.htm
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Old 21 Jun 2010, 18:15 (Ref:2715908)   #43
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As a rough starting point, according to Wikipedia, there were 28 956's built, with a 29th chassis built by Richard Lloyd's team, and 91 factory-built 962s- and that's before you get into the assortment of replica and modified 962 chassis built in-house by the likes of the Kremers, Richard Lloyd, John Thompson, Fabcar, Brun
etc

http://962.com/registry/956_962/index.htm
And a few of the 956s were to a greater of lesser part rebuild into 962s, confusing matters even more. A look at the chassis register would reveal the amount of cars, and that is far from "complete": http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...ht=porsche+956

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Old 23 Jun 2010, 23:07 (Ref:2717139)   #44
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You can go on about the 956/962's all you like, but..........
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Old 25 Jun 2010, 18:43 (Ref:2717948)   #45
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Just bought a hundred or so Autosport's from the late 60s to early 80s for a nominal fee, leafing through the 1st on I picked up, November 26th 1970, on the rear inside cover
'For Sale, Racing Cars from the Motion Picture 'the 24 Hours of Le Mans'
3 Ferraris 512S Longtaled (their spelling)
1 Porsche 917 4.5 litres
1 Porsche 908 Spyder
1 Ford GT40 Spyder
spares available
make offers and enquiries to
Racing Dept., Solar Village, PO box D72, Le Mans, France
Telephone 286750 or 286760'

Amazing - Am i allowed to copy the ad & pin it to this thread
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Old 25 Jun 2010, 21:57 (Ref:2718005)   #46
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Same mag is '1970's most successful sports car - Porsche 917' with a 3 page article & another article on the Chaparral 2J and an interview with Vic Elford, + a full page advert from Gold Leaf Team Lotus with a Lotus 49C, with or w/o a DFV 9, a Lotus 62, a Lotus 63 4wd with or w/o a DFV 9, Rindt's 2 x 69s F2 cars less engines & a 59A F3 car.

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Old 30 Jun 2010, 07:11 (Ref:2720195)   #47
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Managed to buy the new Porsche 956 book yesterday from Chaters via Amazon.It was posted within 1 hour of purchase! Will report back when it arrives, but other snippets I have read suggest it should be superb.I presume in time the same folks should do one on the 962.Ian
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Old 5 Jul 2010, 10:35 (Ref:2722090)   #48
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No way. That would mean 10 years of work on the same car. Too long, exhausting, unintersting, and no one would buy several volumes on the same car, too expensive.

The next ones may even not be about porsches, but shhh.....
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Old 2 Sep 2010, 18:08 (Ref:2753753)   #49
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Would that be this one?



It has recently returned to the track after a long lay-off.
Looks like it's doing a demonstration run at Donington this weekend. Enjoy
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Old 2 Sep 2010, 20:02 (Ref:2753790)   #50
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Must be 962#006BM . Running only the first Race in Spa Francorchamps of this Years Group CGTP Series .
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