Far Eastern GPs - yay or nay?

[Beetle]

We've all heard the grumblings about the slow, yet deliberate, migration to the Far East to host a number of Grand Prix. Not to say I haven't been outspoken, as I've definitely added my fair share of moaning, especially about the Indian and Korean GPs, but does the Far Eastern GP idea get a bad wrap now because of the failure of several of the predecessors. We can basically all agree Shanghai, Yeongam, and Delhi were failures, but Singapore, Suzuka, and Sepang have proved time and time again that Far Eastern GPs don't have to be boring. After all, there are some very beautiful spots in Asia and cities/towns perfectly suited, topographically and hotel-wise, to hold a GP. One could even say south of Bangkok near Phuket could be a decent option.

My opinion is that Far Eastern GPs, like any GP, are only as half-arsed as the organizers want them to be. Shanghai is a doomsday, gray, suburban apocalypse. Delhi is very possibly the most chaotic city in the world; filthy air and water, people literally living on top of each other less than a few miles away from sprawling royalty, and some of the worst traffic. And Yeongam is essentially a bog away from any major city. However, there is access to beautiful mountains just 30 minutes outside of central Seoul, as well as (relatively) clean, natural cities in China like Zhuhai and Shenzhen, as well as Chinese SARs Macau and Hong Kong. Even in India, Mumbai could be a better option than Delhi.

So what do you guys think? Can Far Eastern GPs ever be as good as Western (or American) ones? Could organizers find sightlier and more pleasant locations to put their circuits... and is money the reason behind the locations? Singapore is gaining the "wow" factor, Sepang is great, and Suzuka is a relic of motorsport. So should we be continuing to develop connections in the Far East? Is it good for the sport or breaking down our western motorsport traditions? And could the Chinese, Indian, and Korean GPs be done better?

I thought it deserved a thread so here you go...

[Paradise City]

I think Eccelstone gets very lazy. These wealthy Tiger economies want to be part of the Western club, Bernie collects his cheque effortlessly and everybody is happy until the race comes around and everyone suddenly wakes up to the fact that noone promoted the blasted race (which includes sensible pricing alive to local wage levels) and all the grandstands are all empty. Eccelstone doesn't mind - he just says who's next in the queue for a race.

You have to work hard and be clever to make these races work particularly so in jurisdictions that don't have a history in racing. But I do think there is a deep rooted instinct held by all men which racing appeals to - so I think there is something to work with wherever on the planet you go.

[Paradise City]

You mention Singapore. I tuned in after the interminable pre-race blather and went to watch GT's just before the podium ceremony to save myself from the post-race blather.

In that interval of the race itself - bar a fleeting few helicopter shots - I saw a pedestrian race entirely imprisoned in a joyless steel and concrete cage.

Like Valenicia, there was an interesting city out there and we were deprived of that as a backdrop. Think Monte Carlo where we get to see the cruise ships out in the Med. You wouldn't know you where on the coast in Valencia bar the helicopter. These guys need to just stop taking cheques and actually think about what they are doing.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by Beetle

We can basically all agree Shanghai, Yeongam, and Delhi were failures, but Singapore, Suzuka, and Sepang have proved time and time again that Far Eastern GPs don't have to be boring.

Funny how you say funny things.

Shanghai is not a great drivers track, that I can certainly agree with, and the setting doesn't look great either, but you can't deny that Shanghai provides entertaining races pretty much every year. It has provided far more interesting and entertaining races than Suzuka in the last few years. And isn't that the point?

(If you don't believe me, look at this: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132816
or this: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=127827
or this: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122097
or this: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=115052 )

Anyway, Sepang and Suzuka are great tracks. Sepang is an all-around good track, Suzuka lacks overtaking in comparison but is a great challenge. It's great to watch F1 cars going around Suzuka no matter the quality of racing. Albert Park is fine too, though perhaps Australia has better alternatives, and of course Shanghai provides good racing.

Singapore is a nice spectacle, but a meh course. I could live without it, but I won't complain either way. F1 could do without Yeongam and Buddh, but it's better than no race.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Imo, Japan, Singapore and Australia - yes, China and Malaysia - maybe, everywhere else, no.

[Armco Bender]

All Grand Prixs should be raced on the same track.Just change the background scenery each race,a few palm trees for Bahrain,a few kangaroos and call it Australia.Change the track layout ocassionally with a few pointless chicanes,no one would know any different.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

All Grand Prixs should be raced on the same track.Just change the background scenery each race,a few palm trees for Bahrain,a few kangaroos and call it Australia.Change the track layout ocassionally with a few pointless chicanes,no one would know any different.

Don't give Bernie ideas... he'll be buying up joblots of smoke and mirrors.

[Peat]

Korea CAN build a good circuit, the new Inje Speedium:

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Peat

Korea CAN build a good circuit, the new Inje Speedium:

Yes, but they built Inje too narrow and too small. It would be way too tight for F1. GT is pushing the envelope already.

But I agree, it is in a fantastic location, high up in the Korean mountains. Something tells me Pyeongchang (that's South Korea, folks ) would be a good location for a Korean GP in 2018 and onwards because of all the new hotels being built for the 2018 Winter Olympics.

Perhaps countries like India simply aren't cut out to host Formula 1 races yet. Look at their cities; they are about as 3rd-world as possible and that does not do good things for publicity or for the happiness of the teams or personnel. I'd get pretty depressed staying in a high-rise, 5-star hotel with slums directly below me. I guess I am too sensitive aesthetically.

What about building permanent circuits in Hong Kong or Shenzhen? Or even modifying Zhuhai? The Guangdong province (the big one in southeastern China) seems to have it together more than the rest of China. Plus, it's nicer to look at.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Perhaps countries like India simply aren't cut out to host Formula 1 races yet. Look at their cities; they are about as 3rd-world as possible and that does not do good things for publicity or for the happiness of the teams or personnel. I'd get pretty depressed staying in a high-rise, 5-star hotel with slums directly below me. I guess I am too sensitive aesthetically.

F1 has been going to Brazil (Sao Paulo) for donkeys years! Yes, it's not as bad as it once was, but it's not exactly Dubai.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Marbot

F1 has been going to Brazil (Sao Paulo) for donkeys years! Yes, it's not as bad as it once was, but it's not exactly Dubai.

The difference there is that in South America Grand Prix's aren't just there as a money-raising status symbol. They actually care.

[JeremySmith]

It just shows you that if the circuit is good and there are fans, true fans that attend then the condition of the facility is not crucial...

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

It just shows you that if the circuit is good and there are fans, true fans that attend then the condition of the facility is not crucial...

And I reckon the people in the shanty town there get some good views and will aim high with their lives! Exposure is key to F1 is suppose...

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

The difference there is that in South America Grand Prix's aren't just there as a money-raising status symbol. They actually care.

And, most importantly, the motorsport tradition is there. Unfortunately, the government just doesn't have the money to make world-class circuits for it. I don't know how Interlagos gained FIA Grade 1 citizenship...

But it's a catch 22. Do you want a high-tech, brand new facility like Buddh without the racing tradition or a gritty suburban shantytown setting with racing tradition like Interlagos?

Not that I'd go with Buddh in that particular instance, but I think the general trend should be establishing racing in eastern countries like that so in "donkeys years", when some of us are dead and some old and grey, it can be known that F1 has been racing in New Delhi for "donkeys years". Because expansion is progress, and progress is what F1 wants, right?

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Imo, Japan, Singapore and Australia - yes, China and Malaysia - maybe, everywhere else, no.

China isn't a democracy, so no to me. I agree with the rest of your list.

Originally Posted by Peat

Korea CAN build a good circuit, the new Inje Speedium:

But they don't have fans, so no to me.

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

The difference there is that in South America Grand Prix's aren't just there as a money-raising status symbol. They actually care.

Indeed!

Originally Posted by Beetle

I don't know how Interlagos gained FIA Grade 1 citizenship...

It's compulsory, so yes.

Originally Posted by Beetle

Unfortunately, the government just doesn't have the money to make world-class circuits for it.

Beto Carrero World is building a FIA Class 1 venue in Santa Catarina.

[leonidas]

I've often thought developing street circuits could be a 'socially responsible' way of promoting F1 in developing countries - along with the circuit, better infrastructure would be built, promoting growth, local tourism etc.

The trouble is it is much easier and more profitable to build a circuit in the middle of nowhere and keep your social problems out of the world's view.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

To be fair, there is a lot of money in South America, but a hell of a lot of it is illegal, hence the reason that Mexico is effectively in civil war, but somehow has got itself a GP!

As I've mentioned before, if you're going to the "up-and-coming world powers" like China, Brazil, India and Russia, go to South Africa. They care more than all bar Brazil on that list, and you never know where government money ends up in Africa! A Grade 1 circuit would be easy...

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by leonidas

I've often thought developing street circuits could be a 'socially responsible' way of promoting F1 in developing countries - along with the circuit, better infrastructure would be built, promoting growth, local tourism etc.

The trouble is it is much easier and more profitable to build a circuit in the middle of nowhere and keep your social problems out of the world's view.

I don't think that's it, with maybe the possible exception of India. DTM has already run on street circuits in China and Bangkok was planning a street circuit for F1. Even Brazil runs an Indycar race on the streets.

The problem with street circuits is that it's very rare to have the possibility to make a good track out of existing streets. There's rarely enough room for fast corners with sufficient runoff, rarely do you find city streets take the form of sweeping corners, lack of width on some streets restricts overtaking and often it's slippery off the racing line anyway. F1 doesn't need any more street circuits.

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

China isn't a democracy, so no to me.

Oh great, ideological bigotry.

[bauble]

Grand Prix racing is a European sport, made in France, Italy, Germany, Spain,
Britain, Belgium, Holland etc..
Along came TV, and the rich folk from the East and started buying it up. Tradition was dumped (not an asset), spectators ignored (not required) the face of Grand Prix was changed to F1, easier for the simple mind to grasp.
Teams and drivers don't care because it means more money for them, Fan Boys (those whose knowledge of the 'sport' is gleaned from the likes of Jake Humphrey) love it, and 'Crusty Old Git's' like me curse the day.

I fail to see why we cannot have two Championship series, one for the Europeans, and a separate one for the rest of the world.

[chunder]

Let's be brutal, if Bernie is even cosidering going to Hermanos Rodriquez again it is clear there is only one thing driving the calendar as we all know, and that iswho is willing to pay the most to have an F1 race.

That place was a dump and unspeakably bad when it was hosting races in the 80's! And by all accounts it isnt much better, I remember a WSBK race there being called off in the middle of the rface coz a van drve over the circuit and a guy ran on to pick up a football that had been kicked onto the track!

I dont have an issue with Far East races, they lack atmosphere yes, but some of them are very well put togather, Singapore in particaulr will already be advertising for 2014! Even China seemed to ahve a far bigger crowd this year than the past. Not sure Korea and INdia are that interested, seem like Turkey white elephants really. Just a shame all that engineering and construction is wasted, almost like building an Olympic villge then teraing it all down and selling it!

[Sodemo]

The majority of the new tracks are garbage. Singapore isn't a great track, but at least its a challenge with the barriers being so close etc. Turkey is still probably the best modern track "F1" has produced, even if it has 20 acre run offs at every corner (which at other new tracks like Singapore suddenly aren't required but there you go).

[ScotsBrutesFan]

In this thread there has been lots of talk about tradition...tradition is something built up over time from a first instance.

Of course going somewhere new doesn't have tradition ... By definition it can't possibly have.

The first few races might be a bit dodgy but if those responsible understand why and work toward resolving this then there is no reason why tradition can't be built.
But it needs more than just a circuit, there needs to be a local or regional development plan for young drivers, existing series to use the circuit. All of this can help build that tradition.

The Singapore circuit is maturing, you only have to see the change made this year to remove a chicane, the fact that it's run at night is a gimmick sure, but there is no reason why in it continues to mature adjust as necessary why it can't become a "traditional" venue.

[bjohnsonsmith]

I've always thought of tradition as something that's been built up over time and even if it's not practiced anymore it is still remembered. However the reason why somethings don't become a tradition I think are two fold; firstly cultural and secondly a lack of interest, or even a combination of the two. The thing about tradition, when it comes to hosting GPs, is some of these countries have never had a motorsports tradition/history in the first place, prior to hosting the race.

Motorsport is predominantly a Western/European pursuit and during the 100 or so years motorsport has been around, it's in the West where it was developed and has grown. During the same time frame this hasn't really happened in Africa, the Middle-East or the far East, except for Japan. Obviously things don't happen overnight but take the Macau GP. It's the oldest race in China, first held in 1954 but in all this time has China developed it's own grass roots motorsport? India will be hosting a GP for the fourth time but prior to ever hosting a GP has there been any real interest in motorsport in India? As of 2003, India had only two permanent race tracks.

[Bononi]

What does really count ?

I've been reading through, tradition, government that has no money, south american illegal money, civil war in Mexico (i didn't know about that!), 3rd world class - they still use that expression ? - and a bunch of things that looks like a bad speech of someone dislocated in time.

We're living in a global world, the era of information, one thing can be shared almost instantly, something can be transported in a matter of hours if necessary. You don't have to be actually there to be there, as well you don't have to profit from something only if you sell it in a specific place and time. Times have changed. The "eastern world" is right into our lives, everywhere, the times of "exotic cultures" have passed. There are huge cities in Asia that goes beyond the concept of the "western big city" and they all want what everybody else wants. We are living the time of the "right now, everywhere".

I don't think tradition counts anymore. People pays money to have things like they have in the rest of world, because they can. If England has a GP and India wants one too, and they can pay to have one so they'll pay the double to have a better one, just because they want like others have. And that's all the problem, not only in F1, but with everything else.

That's a consumers society, a global one, and the planet won't handle that for long.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Okay guys, to sum up the some of the countries that are on the 2014 F1 calendar:

Australia - Awesome
Malaysia - Not too bad, but not a brilliant country, with no motorsport history
Bahrain - Corrupt, oil-rich nation run by a hated man in his own country
China - Corrupt communist state, although an up-and-coming world power, with a huge world influence
South Korea - Very good country, with only Japan at it's level in Asia, although it has to worry about about a hostile neighbour, with both currently at war
Spain - Awesome, picturesque, but run out of money
Monaco - The best country in the world at most things, if you consider it a country
USA - Awesome country
Canada - Likewise, despite lacking people and its harsh conditions, they seem to get around it
Austria - Good country in Eastern Europe, but currently in recession
Great Britain - Amazing country, also in recession, but starting to emerge
Germany - Considering it is basically keeping the Euro alive...
Hungary - Emerging from the shadow of Communism, or it would be if not for the recession...
Belgium - Amazing country, but has the most robberies of any country on Earth
Italy - Amazing country, but has corruption in it, and it is running low on money
Singapore - This should be in the leagues of Japan and South Korea, but its laws are ridiculous!
Russia - Starting to gain credibility, but that's mainly from gangster money, and Sochi is near to the state of Chechen...
Japan - Amazing country
Abu Dhabi - Oil-rich state with some corruption and laws that could be viewed as discriminatory
USA - See somewhere above
Mexico - Very corrupt and currently in a state of civil war with it's own drug barons
Brazil - Emerging power which suffers from corruption and very poor standards of living for some people, as well as high crime rates.

Well, what do you think? Should F1 be worldwide or should it visit safe and good countries?