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Old 17 Mar 2017, 12:59 (Ref:3719357)   #251
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My only experience of working with them was many years ago in the WRC, but we had exactly the same situation. Success came when European engineers were listened to or allowed control...... I'd still err towards calling it pride though.




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Old 17 Mar 2017, 16:25 (Ref:3719415)   #252
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To beg the question, why is Honda finding it so difficult to make a competitive PU? This is now the beginning of their 3rd season since returning to F1 and one would think a company with Honda's heritage would finally come good, but clearly not.
They have state of the art F1 facilties in Japan, only problem is they need to be in Oxfordshire to get the best out of them....
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 16:58 (Ref:3719420)   #253
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They have state of the art F1 facilties in Japan, only problem is they need to be in Oxfordshire to get the best out of them....
That wasn't an issue back in the late '80s, when McLaren and Honda dominated. F1Guy's answer seems to make the most sense, having worked with Japanese engineers but even so, coming up to the start of their third season, you would think Honda would have made some progress.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 18:46 (Ref:3719448)   #254
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Honda don't seem to be the force they once were (thinking back to Williams, Lotus, Mclaren and even their Jordan and BAR days). Some of the magic is missing there.

Here's hoping that they get their act together.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 20:27 (Ref:3719464)   #255
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That wasn't an issue back in the late '80s, when McLaren and Honda dominated. F1Guy's answer seems to make the most sense, having worked with Japanese engineers but even so, coming up to the start of their third season, you would think Honda would have made some progress.
My opinion...

The Japanese CAN do a good job (just like anyone else). And I expect that things today are much more complicated than they were than in the late 80's. Some comments (not yours bjohnsonsmith) here have a very eurocentric snobbish slant. They speak to real or perceived cultural issues of the Japanese, but tend to ignore other negative stereotypes that may apply to their own culture (e.g. German engineered items are overly complex and fragile). Note, while there may very well be some cultural issues at play, I am very much against painting an entire group with a wide brush and calling it a day.

Regardless, I do acknowledge that the center of gravity within the world of high performance race engines (with F1 in particular) lives in Europe. So that means... yes, if you want to pull in a consultant, they statistically probably will be a european.

I think I have mentioned in another thread, but Honda really has a different philosophy of how they staff up projects like this. They rotate in-house and younger engineers through their motorsports programs. That can hurt as you lose experience and domain knowledge, but it is good in that it distributes the experience a bit more evenly and that helps them outside of the motorsports side of things. But... that approach is really is not a recipe for success if your goal is competition. I am sure at some level Honda understands they make their own job harder, but also realize the benefits.

Honda went radical with the new engine. It apparently is not a refinement of the prior engine. They could have just revised the prior engine, but they didn't want to just catch up, but tried the risky move of leapfroging. Yes, knowledge carries over even if you start again from scratch, but I expect they are having problems with whatever their new concepts are. There is plenty of speculation as to what it is, but they have a number of new things going on. One is the switch to a TJI pre-combustion system (which is difficult). There is also speculation that Honda spent too much time experimenting with different concepts until a late date, vs. picking a specific a path early and then refine it. The upside is that maybe if they did pick a good concept they just need to polish it.

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Old 17 Mar 2017, 22:20 (Ref:3719475)   #256
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One word. Stubbornness.

People talk about Japanese pride. I have in the past worked with Japanese engineers on joint venture projects. They are great engineers, very talented, but they are also very stubborn. They want it done all their way. Even when faced with the obvious, they refuse to admit to their erroneous methods. People for some reason mistake their stubbornness for pride. Pride and stubbornness are two very different things. And in my experiences, the Japanese are very stubborn.
Brutal!.....in the past 20 years i have worked in the automotive and motorsports R&D industry with all manner of nationalities.....many individuals could be labelled as stubborn, a scottish guy and Portuguese guy in particular drove me up the wall, but i would not therefore label all scots and Portuguese as stubborn, the individuals concerned were just "girls front bottoms"......i have said it before and ill say it again, in the asia region ageism is rife, once an engineers older boss says it is to be done a certain way, the engineer dare not question his elders instruction, its as simple as that.
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 22:49 (Ref:3719478)   #257
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As Private Fraser would say"They are doomed,if they continue in this manner,Captain Mainwaring!"
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Old 17 Mar 2017, 23:29 (Ref:3719487)   #258
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Brutal!.....in the past 20 years i have worked in the automotive and motorsports R&D industry with all manner of nationalities.....many individuals could be labelled as stubborn, a scottish guy and Portuguese guy in particular drove me up the wall, but i would not therefore label all scots and Portuguese as stubborn, the individuals concerned were just "girls front bottoms"......i have said it before and ill say it again, in the asia region ageism is rife, once an engineers older boss says it is to be done a certain way, the engineer dare not question his elders instruction, its as simple as that.
Ageism:noun
1. discrimination against persons of a certain age group.

2. a tendency to regard older persons as debilitated, unworthy of attention, or unsuitable for employment.



I think subservient or obeisant is what you are looking for Knighty.

Anyway, I guess it's time for Honda to fire Captain Mainwaring's butt and move on!
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Old 18 Mar 2017, 21:22 (Ref:3719803)   #259
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Ageism:noun
1. discrimination against persons of a certain age group.

2. a tendency to regard older persons as debilitated, unworthy of attention, or unsuitable for employment.



I think subservient or obeisant is what you are looking for Knighty.

Anyway, I guess it's time for Honda to fire Captain Mainwaring's butt and move on!
You said it!.....honestly i think they have many issues, it seems my contact in Japan was right about his assessment of the 2017 years Honda F1 performance.....the program is full of inexperienced engineers who rely almost soley on simulation data.....a recipe for disaster and thats whats happened.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 00:13 (Ref:3720083)   #260
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A few whispers from the Melbourne pitlane suggests that McLaren has a get out clause (effective immediately) for their engine deal with Honda Racing, as it was a deal made with previous McLaren F1 management, which is no longer in effect.

We know Ron Dennis is no longer with McLaren F1, but does that now make the McLaren/Honda agreement null and void?? Was a clause put in by RD that if he was to be ousted the Honda deal goes with him? I guess it's all in the fine print of the agreement. Something for the lawyers.

I'm not sure that McLaren could (or would) dump Honda at a this late a stage. It would be a massive blow for Honda if McLaren were to part with them at the early stages of 2017. And a blow for McLaren financially.

If the divorce was to go ahead, it would take 7-9 weeks to re-engineer the MCL32 to drop in the new engine, depending who McLaren deal with. Could we see McLaren powered by a different engine post the summer break? Quite possible from what the rumours are suggesting.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 00:15 (Ref:3720084)   #261
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A few whispers from the Melbourne pitlane suggests that McLaren has a get out clause (effective immediately) for their engine deal with Honda Racing, as it was a deal made with previous McLaren F1 management, which is no longer in effect.

We know Ron Dennis is no longer with McLaren F1, but does that now make the McLaren/Honda agreement null and void?? Was a clause put in by RD that if he was to be ousted the Honda deal goes with him? I guess it's all in the fine print of the agreement. Something for the lawyers.

I'm not sure that McLaren could (or would) dump Honda at a this late a stage. It would be a massive blow for Honda if McLaren were to part with them at the early stages of 2017. And a blow for McLaren financially.

If the divorce was to go ahead, it would take 7-9 weeks to re-engineer the MCL32 to drop in the new engine, depending who McLaren deal with. Could we see McLaren powered by a different engine post the summer break? Quite possible from what the rumours are suggesting.
McLaren to Renault?
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 00:22 (Ref:3720086)   #262
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McLaren to Renault?
I'll ask my sauce. Get back to in a few.

Ok... Tom says no, and Barb says yes.

Last edited by F1Guy; 20 Mar 2017 at 00:35.
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Old 20 Mar 2017, 01:07 (Ref:3720090)   #263
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I'll ask my sauce. Get back to in a few.

Ok... Tom says no, and Barb says yes.
It is one way to go to a partner you haven't annoyed in recent times...

Red Bull proved a customer engine can win..

Unless Mr Ojjeh is planning on another TAG-Porsche project..
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 10:39 (Ref:3720383)   #264
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I'll ask my sauce. Get back to in a few.

Ok... Tom says no, and Barb says yes.
Brown or red sauce?
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Old 21 Mar 2017, 11:09 (Ref:3720388)   #265
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A few whispers from the Melbourne pitlane suggests that McLaren has a get out clause (effective immediately) for their engine deal with Honda Racing, as it was a deal made with previous McLaren F1 management, which is no longer in effect.

We know Ron Dennis is no longer with McLaren F1, but does that now make the McLaren/Honda agreement null and void?? Was a clause put in by RD that if he was to be ousted the Honda deal goes with him? I guess it's all in the fine print of the agreement. Something for the lawyers.

I'm not sure that McLaren could (or would) dump Honda at a this late a stage. It would be a massive blow for Honda if McLaren were to part with them at the early stages of 2017. And a blow for McLaren financially.

If the divorce was to go ahead, it would take 7-9 weeks to re-engineer the MCL32 to drop in the new engine, depending who McLaren deal with. Could we see McLaren powered by a different engine post the summer break? Quite possible from what the rumours are suggesting.
I'm prepared the bet that some engine CAD data has already been passed from Mercedes or Renault over to Mclaren, so they can start to scope out, design and procure whats required and reduce the timing impact, I can imagine this will be done in a veil of secrecy probably off-site away from prying eyes.......Merc were probably prepared to supply Manor in 2017, so I dare say there is a substantial stock of engine parts at Mercedes just waiting to be built into running engines and used by a team.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 22:01 (Ref:3720772)   #266
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Mr Boullier's take on a key Honda issue: Deadlines? We don't got no stinking deadlines

I'm assuming that he is being diplomatic with his media utterings but sounds to me like there are really serious problems in the background.

It is definitely the thing that outsiders find hardest to deal with in racing teams - the fact that deadlines are absolute (the race starts when it starts, if you're not white ready, bad luck). As a result, teams tend to get things done fast - go hard at it and put in long hours which means suppliers or in this case engine partners need to have the same approach for the whole thing to work.
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Old 22 Mar 2017, 22:23 (Ref:3720779)   #267
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Brown or red sauce?
I think this is really at the heart of the matter.
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Old 23 Mar 2017, 05:29 (Ref:3720816)   #268
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Brown or red sauce?
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Old 23 Mar 2017, 10:16 (Ref:3720862)   #269
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Interesting to hear Autosport's season preview podcast, in which they mention in fighting at McLaren. They need to sort their loaves out and work together to get the best out of the team, car and engine if that is the case, because it's only disrupting them at the moment
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Old 23 Mar 2017, 17:03 (Ref:3720936)   #270
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 11:27 (Ref:3721126)   #271
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A very good report on Hondas situation by Joe Saward......lightweight components = low stiffness = vey low natural frequency = severe vibrations within the working rpm range of the motor.......I'm betting Honda built a super lightweight crankshaft, probably formed by laser-sintering, so could be wafer thin wall section, but subsequently very flexible = vibrations

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017/03/17/lets-be-sensible-about-honda/

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Old 24 Mar 2017, 12:06 (Ref:3721135)   #272
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 12:08 (Ref:3721137)   #273
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
Oh blimey!
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 13:09 (Ref:3721156)   #274
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Oh blimey!
lets be honest, what else could they have been working on!......also McLaren have more to lose than gain by driopping honda, we are talking hundreds of millions of lost revenue if they ditch Honda, which could easily bankrupt McLaren as a company, hence its worth fixing
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Old 24 Mar 2017, 14:19 (Ref:3721184)   #275
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Honda F1 chief Yusuke Hasegawa has apparently just announced that Honda are now working on yet another new engine!
Well, the way you say that it sounds as if they just dumped what they have now in the trash and are starting with a blank sheet all over again!

Assuming we are looking at the same articles, they are going to be releasing a revised version of this engine somewhere around Monaco. And, IMHO that is pretty much to be expected. You have a series of fly away races in which McLaren is generally stuck with the current spec (+/-). I would actually be shocked if a revision wasn't arriving around that time (or earlier if Honda is able to make it happen that fast). This is actually good news. So no need to invent additional drama.

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A very good report on Hondas situation by Joe Saward......lightweight components = low stiffness = vey low natural frequency = severe vibrations within the working rpm range of the motor.......I'm betting Honda built a super lightweight crankshaft, probably formed by laser-sintering, so could be wafer thin wall section, but subsequently very flexible = vibrations

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...e-about-honda/

.
The regulations fix some dimensions of the crank such as main and rod journal diameters (actually sets minimum sizes). So I believe that attempts to prevent small cranks, but doesn't require them to be solid. I have read elsewhere about the potential for a hollow crank to reduce weight.

I have also read speculation about a different firing order and/or aggressive cylinder deactivation (run as V4 at times) causing problems. I wonder if part of this revision is to a different firing order (new crank and cam much like Porsche had to do with their LMP1 v4 after vibration issues when the engine was in the car for the first time) and I have heard that maybe the cylinder deactivation can be mostly solved (or reduced) by mapping changes.

Lastly, while Joe Saward gets on my nerves at times, that article is a healthy dose of reality. Especially around the implications of McLaren dumping Honda during 2017 season (highly unlikely). That is exactly the reasons I predicted in the time capsule thread that they would remain partners for 2017.

I tend to believe Honda will get this right, but the question is how deep into the season will it take. Even now, we are seeing McLaren run FP1 and FP2 without the types of failures they had in pre-season testing. Granted, they are likely restricted by specific boundaries (lower revs, etc.) that will limit performance. I expect the immediate goal (using the engines they have at the moment) is to get laps and ensure the cars finish races. The first race or two may be nothing more than extended test sessions for McLaren to make up for lost time.

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