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Old 23 Aug 2015, 10:28 (Ref:3567879)   #101
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TrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTrapezeArtist should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I imagine Arai San is feeling some serious heat from his bosses back in Japan. So he decided on a three-pronged attack:
1. Blame the McLaren chassis
2. Big-up the new engine tweaks
3. Take advantage of the new penalty rules take all the penalties in one go, and have them diluted to nearly nothing. With 50 and 55 places of penalties, by my reckoning JB and Ferdie should be starting the race from the A3 just outside of Brussels.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 00:28 (Ref:3568066)   #102
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They came in 13th and 14th today. I don't think that's a bad result at all, all things considered.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 00:39 (Ref:3568071)   #103
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It needs hindsight to know whether to have continued with Merc. These things have to be planned well in advance and one would think Honda would be a stable enough proposition to deliver a stable enough powerplant in their first year.

I don't know what Honda were up to at all. Still the partnership should pay off in the long term.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 00:51 (Ref:3568075)   #104
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They came in 13th and 14th today. I don't think that's a bad result at all, all things considered.
Agreed. not a bad result at all.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 01:19 (Ref:3568090)   #105
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thats a hard call to make even in hindsight imo.

would a continued relationship with Merc have been better then having the money Honda have invested in McLaren?

tough call.
Strangely enough, I think Ron made the right call, they might be suffering a lot of pain currently, but I think McLaren is in a better position with Honda behind it than as a customer of Mercedes!
They are a manufacturer backed team with a realistic chance of competing for a World Championship, well camouflaged as it is at present.

Also, looking at the facts again without hindsight, would Ron have made a different decision, I think not, ergo right decision made!

Hope the combination gets better results very soon!
Not sure how enthusiastic I am about 13th and 14th out of 16 finishers, only ahead of the Marussia minnows, I can be.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 11:39 (Ref:3568211)   #106
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I don't know what Honda were up to at all. Still the partnership should pay off in the long term.
You're still believing what most people, including Won, believed. That Honda will get it right every time. I more-or-less believed it before the 2015 McLaren Honda appeared, but now I don't. But more important than you or I, I wonder if Won still believes it.

I think I might still have had faith in Honda to come good in the end, but two things this weekend have told me that it probably won't happen:
1. Arai making whacky claims for the upgrades and implying that the McLaren is a big part of the problem.
2. Honda dismissing the idea of poaching some people who might know about hybrid F1 engines because "that's not the Honda culture".
One shows desperation and the other shows that they're not prepared to learn.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 13:56 (Ref:3568261)   #107
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But ultimately who provides Mclaren the best chance of winning races?

It's all just hindsight, but so far only Merc built cars have won with a Merc engine. I imagine RB is asking themselves that question now as are Merc no doubt wondering what happens if they sell their engines to a team with significant resources. After all there is a reason no top team is even interested in contemplating buying the Ferrari package. Can one reasonably expect support from an engine maker while challenging them for wins?

all things being equal, the money that Honda brings is the trump card in this equation imo.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 14:31 (Ref:3568273)   #108
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You're still believing what most people, including Won, believed. That Honda will get it right every time. I more-or-less believed it before the 2015 McLaren Honda appeared, but now I don't. But more important than you or I, I wonder if Won still believes it.

I think I might still have had faith in Honda to come good in the end, but two things this weekend have told me that it probably won't happen:
1. Arai making whacky claims for the upgrades and implying that the McLaren is a big part of the problem.
2. Honda dismissing the idea of poaching some people who might know about hybrid F1 engines because "that's not the Honda culture".
One shows desperation and the other shows that they're not prepared to learn.
Its interesting about this Honda ''culture''. Towards the end of yesterday's BBC broadcast, 03:08:16 BBC iPlayer, the discussion turned to McLaren and Honda. Eddie Jordan mentioned Kamamoto and what a genius he was and what he did for Honda 30 years ago. With regards to Honda's culture he said Honda talk about culture but they don't even have the same culture they had 30 years ago.
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Old 24 Aug 2015, 18:11 (Ref:3568334)   #109
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Its interesting about this Honda ''culture''. Towards the end of yesterday's BBC broadcast, 03:08:16 BBC iPlayer, the discussion turned to McLaren and Honda. Eddie Jordan mentioned Kamamoto and what a genius he was and what he did for Honda 30 years ago. With regards to Honda's culture he said Honda talk about culture but they don't even have the same culture they had 30 years ago.
My gut tells me that I sure hope their culture is not the same as 30 years ago, but I think that misses the point of the conversation.

What "is" the Honda culture. My perception has been that they have always tried to use motorsports as way to help cycle various engineers through the motorsports engineering section. That might not make sense if your goal is to be #1 in that you focus on hiring knowledge from wherever you can find it. But it probably does help the overall engineering knowledge inside of your company.

I think the right solution is a mixture of the two. Bring in experts as needed and cycle your younger staff through to give them experience and knowledge they wouldn't get otherwise.

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Old 24 Aug 2015, 23:07 (Ref:3568424)   #110
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I think the right solution is a mixture of the two. Bring in experts as needed and cycle your younger staff through to give them experience and knowledge they wouldn't get otherwise.

Richard
The problem with hiring in the expertise is that you effectively publish all your secrets and competitive advantages, so it is very much a double edged sword.
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Old 25 Aug 2015, 14:54 (Ref:3568626)   #111
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The problem with hiring in the expertise is that you effectively publish all your secrets and competitive advantages, so it is very much a double edged sword.
but at this point isnt that what Honda needs...the secrets of others.

actually would be a nice change of pace, if Honda came up with something that others teams wanted enough to try to snag their employees.

which in a way is what Merc got when it took over Brawn.
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Old 31 Aug 2015, 19:16 (Ref:3570301)   #112
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
If the Honda engine is ahead of the Renault on power then the McLaren chassis is very poor!!!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120561

I wonder is Arai forgetting about the poor energy recovery and storage systems with the Honda power unit.
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Old 31 Aug 2015, 19:26 (Ref:3570304)   #113
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yeah i saw that as well.

not sure if those quotes are new/post Spa or pre Spa.
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Old 31 Aug 2015, 19:32 (Ref:3570305)   #114
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If the Honda engine is ahead of the Renault on power then the McLaren chassis is very poor!!!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120561

I wonder is Arai forgetting about the poor energy recovery and storage systems with the Honda power unit.
That was Button's problem at Spa.
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Old 31 Aug 2015, 20:44 (Ref:3570324)   #115
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Think Arai should stick to making helmets instead of talking like one.
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Old 31 Aug 2015, 20:59 (Ref:3570325)   #116
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I can't see anything controversial in that article. It might be spot on, it doesn't infer anything derogatory about the chassis, is clear its talking about the ICE only and it says that they need to improve and that there are challenges with the packaging, but they'll be worthwhile.
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Old 31 Aug 2015, 22:23 (Ref:3570335)   #117
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certainly not controversial nor anything new, but the selected quotes do make mention of the 'size zero' restrictions as being the issue.
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Old 1 Sep 2015, 12:19 (Ref:3570483)   #118
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Think Arai should stick to making helmets instead of talking like one.
I couldnt agree more....the bloke is doing the proverbial "porta-loo" impression....full of it......I can imagine the folk at Woking have just bitten through their tongues at that comment......I'm sure someone senior at McLaren will publicly blow their lid at Honda quite soon.
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Old 1 Sep 2015, 14:10 (Ref:3570506)   #119
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not sure if those quotes are new/post Spa or pre Spa.
Agree. Potential recycle of old quotes for a post spa story.

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I can't see anything controversial in that article. It might be spot on, it doesn't infer anything derogatory about the chassis, is clear its talking about the ICE only and it says that they need to improve and that there are challenges with the packaging, but they'll be worthwhile.
Agree. I think much of the recent talk of "power" has likely been around the ICE. While they have multiple problems, I suspect getting the ERS where it needs to be (power and reliability) is just pure "work" while on the ICE side, I think they might have been mystified as to how to get more power given the fuel and cooling limitations.

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certainly not controversial nor anything new, but the selected quotes do make mention of the 'size zero' restrictions as being the issue.
I think that is a key thing. I know they talked a great deal about heat rejection issues earlier and I expect close packaging plus maybe an "on the edge" cooling setup are part of that. Clearly the tight packaging and potentially smaller cooling setup are all about aero. The packaging and heat issues might also be impacting ERS reliability as well.

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Old 5 Sep 2015, 14:08 (Ref:3571542)   #120
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If the Honda is now more powerful than the Renault, then I'd expected they'd have out qualified at least some of the Renault powered cars at Monza. Instead, they out qualified none of them.

There's no evidence of this engine being any better than it was before, never mind better than anything else on the grid.
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Old 5 Sep 2015, 14:52 (Ref:3571547)   #121
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If the Honda is now more powerful than the Renault, then I'd expected they'd have out qualified at least some of the Renault powered cars at Monza. Instead, they out qualified none of them.

There's no evidence of this engine being any better than it was before, never mind better than anything else on the grid.
Depends what you mean by engine. Honda's ICE could be more powerful than Mercedes' and it would count for diddly squat if the ERS isn't doing anything, and I've always understood that that's been the issue with Honda's PU. It just ain't recovering enough energy.
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Old 5 Sep 2015, 15:15 (Ref:3571551)   #122
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But since the ICE on its own is useless, and Honda is responsible for the PU as a whole, including the recovery system, I don't think it matters. Any sort of posturing is pointless as the PU is still clearly the worst on the grid by a significant margin. So claiming the ICE is better than Renault (with no evidence to back that up) is like saying "Our pistons are better than Ferraris. It's a shame our valves are crap". It's a unit as a whole that counts, and Honda have done a spectacularly bad job at it.

We're now visiting a power circuit, and apart from Manor (who barely count), the McLarens are still firmly last and second last. But we just came from Spa, a circuit where the chassis counts for a bit more than Monza, and McLaren performed better. So it doesn't take very long to work out that the weak link is still the Honda engine, and it's still the worst on the grid, no matter what angle you look at it.
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Old 6 Sep 2015, 08:55 (Ref:3571785)   #123
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wolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridwolfhound should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
A little jem of information from Alonso where he said that at Monzas six corners McLaren is losing 2 or 3 tenths to fastest cars. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out where the rest of the 2.6 seconds deficit is lost.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34164674
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Old 6 Sep 2015, 09:25 (Ref:3571791)   #124
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And the time they are losing on the corners is due to then having had to wind he downforce out of it in a feeble attempt to claw back some straight line. Some also say the poor drive ability of the PU results on a lower corner exit speed
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Old 6 Sep 2015, 09:30 (Ref:3571794)   #125
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And the time they are losing on the corners is due to then having had to wind he downforce out of it in a feeble attempt to claw back some straight line. Some also say the poor drive ability of the PU results on a lower corner exit speed
So when they eventually get a decent amount of power out of the Honda PU they should be well versed in running low downforce setups. The other side is you need more downforce to fully exploit greater horse power.
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