So, What's Wrong With Sharing Designs / Data?

[shiny side up!]

The whole New Sauber / old Ferrari thing has this topic all stirred up, but in reality it is a much bigger issue that just those teams... So my question for 10/10 F1 fans is: what is wrong with teams sharing data, designs, resources, etc? Moreover, what would be wrong with a team selling customer chassis / engines / gearboxes / whatever?

For my part, I enjoy examining the different cars each team makes, analyzing the different solutions the teams come up with to the same problem: how to go fastest given the FIA's rules.

That being said, I have no problem with one team selling data, parts, assemblies, drivers, or even whole cars to other teams. To me, this makes financial sense to all involved... a mid or back of the pack team can get the maximum performance gain for the minimum amount of money, and the better teams can maximize their return on their development investment... sound business sense. The racing certainly doesn't suffer... if anything, the back of the grid gets better relative to the front. And anything that makes the financial situation better will help F1 keep the teams it has, and maybe even allow it to grow the number of teams who can afford to compete!

I'm sure there are many differing viewpoints, so let's hear them! Sorry this post was so long...

[Glen]

This is not accurate - collusion between teams is illegal, so if Sauber operate as Ferrari B and pull team orders they will get penalised.

[shiny side up!]

Originally posted by Damon
(I feel a thread merge coming on .)

I had hoped this thread would stay on a grander scope than the Ferrari / Sauber situation...

If there are any 2 teams using common components (engine, gearbox, electronics, chassis, whatever), invariably one of them will be stronger, if only slightly, than the other. This does not, in and of itself, mean that there is or will be any on-track collusion. If it did, then there couldn't be 3 teams on the track with a Cosworth engine. Nor could there be 5 teams on Michelins. Heck, there couldn't even be 2 Schumachers on the track...

Let's let them at least race before they are accused of implementing 'Inter-Team Orders'...

[Super Tourer]

This is a great dilemma for the FIA.

One of Max Mosley's ideas, was that leasing teams sell chassis to the mid-field, in order that they may be more competitive and cheaper than building a spec car.

The rules that relate to building an F1 car, come from the Concorde Agreement, the mass of closely typed script which is 'unkown' to the outside world...

According to Autosport, their understand of the position is this.

"A constructor is a person or person who owns the intellectual property rights to the chassis it races, which must not incorporate in the chassis any part designed or manufactured by any other constructor of an F1 car. This excludes, any safety items and engines or geraboxes"

On this basis, using the Ferrari designs would be a brech of the rules.

The last time this arose was when Ligier produced a car 'very similar' to the Benetton B195, Flav having a finger in both pies at the time - at the time Briatore said it was a Ligier built car and that was the end of it.

I don't think we will even see a raised eyebrow from the FIA, as in reality even IF sauber had allegedly produced a virtual 2003 Ferrari, this is more or less what the FIA wants to see - 'customer' cars in F1.

In the final analysis, what would make a better spectacle, Jordan and Minardi producing a 'best effort' 2 secs off the pace, or Jordan running a Williams FW25 and mixing it nearer the front?

This is of course the way it used to be, as a privateer entry you tooled up with your cheque book outside the Maserati works or wherever, and bought your F1 car.

[Wrex]

Just so everyone knows - this is a very different topic to the Sauber/Ferrari bash thread, so keep your comments seperated. The Zero Tolerance policy will apply. I can see this thread getting thinned out already.



And for crying out loud Gt_R, its been four years, learn to use the quote button!

[Wrex]

Sorry about the clippers shiny side up!, but I feared what could be a very good discussion was turning into a duplicate of another boring thread.

Should they be allowed? IMO, yes.

Nothing to do with Sauber either. IMO, Sauber should be aiming higher, but thats another topic.

For the strugglers, Minardi & Jordan, and F3000 and other players that want to join, this could work very well. It helps them in the door before they start R&D for their own car.

The downside of course, is we will have the smaller teams at the mercy of the big ones, so some rules would need to apply.

Bring it on I say.

[Gt_R]

Sorry there Wrex.. i do find it easier to keep typing without having my thoughts/opinions interupted in the quick reply, hence the rather poor presentation of quotes

And it's been 4 years...really? Time really flies huh when you are enjoying yourself around here.

And back to the topic, i believe it is ok for teams to legally/formally share data/design in F1. Which means, a big team can help a small team out, or even 2 small teams pool their budget together (hence a bigger budget) which would allow them to have more money for testings/R&D/better parts/paid drivers.

In fact, i always thought that small teams such as Minardi/Jordan ought to just each develope a new technology and cross-exchange at cheaper price to boost their own performance while earning small but quick bucks.

I see nothing wrong with it, unless (a concern which i and many have) is that there are some unnatural or illegal clauses in the terms between the 2 teams which may affect on track results as well as pose obstruction to rival teams. I do reckon that FIA need to have rules to regulate such things.

[Wrex]

"Sorry there Wrex.. i do find it easier to keep typing without having my thoughts/opinions interupted in the quick reply, hence the rather poor presentation of quotes"

Annoying is'nt it

The only other condition I would attach to it is that the teams must be seperate entities such as Sauber and Ferrari. I would'nt approve of say Ferrari and a new team started by Todt for instance.

[Smokey 6 litre]

There is nothing wrong with sharing data, but i think sharign a whole shassis design is rather unsporting and not in the spirit of the sport (or what the spirit should be)

[eein]

Personally I would like to see the ability for the top teams to 'sell' designs to lower teams. But doing this would be very difficult and would require huge regulation and I suspect, cause more problems in the long run.

Firstly, it would likely cause the F1 field to become even more of a two tear league. I know it is just now, but with sharing chassis I suspect it would be harder for the lower teams to get 'up the league'.

If the 'top team' find their 'junior team' is getting too good, there would be all sorts of controversy about whether there may be 'gentleman's agreements' in place. This would require regulation, and as we all know, just having the regulations in place may not prevent problems.

I could see a system whereby manufacturers and designers that are not associated with teams could sell chassis and aero packages to teams. A bit like the american racing series (I'm not for one moment suggesting F1 adopt the american formulae model). I would not be surprised if Jag don't pick up, that Cosworth go (back) to an engine supply to multiple teams capacity.

There are plenty of motorsport consultancies out there that could make chassis and sell them to more than one team.

Many of the teams already make extensive use of external consultancies that do work for more than one team - I'm sure there are many small details in some of the systems that are the same accross teams from this.

[Super Tourer]

Originally posted by eein
Personally I would like to see the ability for the top teams to 'sell' designs to lower teams. But doing this would be very difficult and would require huge regulation and I suspect, cause more problems in the long run.

Firstly, it would likely cause the F1 field to become even more of a two tear league. I know it is just now, but with sharing chassis I suspect it would be harder for the lower teams to get 'up the league'.

This is the dilemma. As the top teams produce more innovative cars to increase the competition between them, this will have the effect of widening the gap to the likes of Jordan and Minardi. I think we could see a substantial gap from pole to last, which will possibly put the 107% rule into force, with little that the back of the grid teams can do about it, as it's in the hands of the cars at the front.

[Champ69]

Originally posted by Glen
This is not accurate - collusion between teams is illegal, so if Sauber operate as Ferrari B and pull team orders they will get penalised.

I completly disagree with seperate teams joining forces and I am very concerned about the Sauber drivers testing for Ferrari. A precedent has been sent in 1997 when Williams and McLaren issued interteam orders at Jerez enabling Mikka to take the race win and JV to take the title. Also in 2002 Williams and McLaren colluded in sharing tire data in the aims to have tire available that suited both teams.

I think that intertam orders and collusion is far worse than what happened in Austria 2002. I understand why Ferrari are helping Sauber - with all the major teams on oppossing tires, but I do disagree.

I think we will find out at the Ferrari launce what the reasoning behind the Sauber link. If the new Ferrari resembles the new Sauber then the two cars development will increase the ferraris speed.

[Adam43]

I don't think there is anything wrong with it (just sharing car parts/designs) and I think the FIA would get it changed if they could.

However in the short term I'm not sure many teams would take it up. It might be one for new teams though...

[Adam43]

Thread title: So, What's Wrong With Sharing Designs / Data?

Keep on topic, please, otherwise we'll have another one of those threads...

[Champ69]

The mainreason I find a problem with teams sharing ideas/data is that the sport will lose its upcoming designers. Why spend millions designing a new car or investigating a new idea when one can just go out and purchase a Williams, Mclaren or a ferrari. It would be the end of Minardi and in the end the sport would be made a version of cart where you could go to Ferrari and by the chassis, BMW for the engine and Pirelli for the tires.

We need ten differant cars to keep producing tallented designers. The cars look the same now - to the point where we get all excited about the Williams new nose. imagine if there where only three or four car designers out there.