Do you really want parity then?

[socram]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

And, race results adjusted to take into account the slow laps traveled behind the Safety car

You ignore the simple fact that our/my adjustment was for handicap racing and at no time did I imply it was in anyway relevant for scratch racing. It isn't, though quite why cars are allowed to unlap themselves under a safety car is beyond me.

Any percentage spread of lap times in scratch races where it means slower cars are excluded is also an odd decision. Remember Dick Johnson moaning about 'wombats in billy carts' getting in his way at Bathurst? Racing is also about overtaking much slower cars, not just dicing for position within a procession. It is not so many years ago that F1 grids were half full of makeweight privateers, but I can't ever remember Stirling Moss, Graham Hill, Jim Clark, John Surtees etc., moaning about the performance difference. At least the spectators had full grids for their entry fee, not a lot of what we have seen in recent seasons, grids of under 10 cars, BEFORE attrition.

Motorsport is not just about the drivers - except at club level. The further you go up the ladder, the more you have to take into account the wishes of spectators, officials, sponsors, team engineers, maybe even TV presenters. At our club level, spectators don't count as entry is free, but I'd venture to suggest that many spectators come away having enjoyed a day of quickfire racing, fairly full grids and often a surprisingly high stanadrd or respecftful driving, without losing anything in terms of competitiveness.

Somewhere between a run-away winner and a procession, drawn out or close, there has to actually be an element of racing and that by definition means overtaking. Take the overtaking out and you may as well spectate at a track day.

[formerf1champ]

An unexpectedly interesting thread. A probing question form Goat Boy. I think we may get a clear idea of what people think of racing, as a result of this thread. The person I disagree with the most is Icarus_nz.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Racing is gladatorial.

No! It most definitely isn't.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

If the gladiator is the star then the chariot is irrelevant.

No, the car first, then the driver.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Do people attending a tennis care what racket is used or do they do to see the skill of the sportsperson with that tool?
In golf, major technological breakthroughs are tightly controlled because it is the skill of the golfer that folks pay to watch.

Tennis/golf are about the players. The racquet/club are tools used by the players. "Car" racing is about...cars. the driver is a tool used by the car, even though the car is not a living thing.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Sport is about people. Casual fans go to watch people and associate with 'their' star.

They may do that. But it doesn't take away the fundamental principle that car racing is about...car...racing.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Racing is about balance and nunce.
It is ballet with black boots.
This is why it is critical to educate the viewing public about what they are seeing and where to look.

Not liking where this is going.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

So parity? At the premier level where it is the best against the best, absolutely.
.

NO NO NO! You're going the wrong way. It's the other way around!

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

If that's your opinion on motorsport, you're following the wrong sport.

Agree with that.

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Sure, theres one person in the spotlight, but its a whole team effort, not a single person, and cannot be compared to a game that involves a single competitor against others.

Its much about getting the most out of the driver, as it is getting the most out of the car. You wont see 100 people courtside working on a racket to get it to swing faster...

Are you saying that racing is a team sport, in a similar sense to a footy code, or are you meaning that all the people involved in the high end of car racing is all about the car winning?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Oh believe me when I say that I know how important the team is to the sport. It is a people sport first and foremost.

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! It's called CAR RACING, not DRIVER racing. Not being an ******** about it, I'm just saying. You can't take away these facts.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

Much that the last 2 pages were a bunch of largely unnecessary twaddle I was heartened by the fact that stealthy can be as obtuse as the majority of posters over in the kiwi threads.
Grown men and handbags - not just a kiwi phenomenon :-)
Mind you, we don't know what your passport says either...

Unfortunately, the saying is correct. If you try and argue with an idiot, they'll drag you down to their level, and beat you with experience.

My problem was still being able to see the dribble posted by a member who is on my ignore list, due to other people quoting him.

My opinion still stands, no matter what a commentator has said during a telecast (just ask bluesport about his opinion on anything Skaifey says) and it seems alot of people who enjoy sports car racing agree (and those in this specific thread that have cried about classes, either dont know anything about sportscar racing, or are choosing not to)

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Agree with that.

Are you saying that racing is a team sport, in a similar sense to a footy code, or are you meaning that all the people involved in the high end of car racing is all about the car winning?

There's a slight difference, in the fact that all the players on a footy team are in the spotlight together, with a similar role each (i wont use the term equal, because some have a specific purpose)

My point was, there are behind the scenes people that work their ass off to get .1 of a second out of the car, for the driver to get the glory of showing that speed. And is also the reason i used tennis as the comparison (since its a single competitor in the spotlight, without a team of personnel working on the racket)

[Casper]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! It's called CAR RACING, not DRIVER racing. Not being an ******** about it, I'm just saying. You can't take away these facts.

Afraid not, let's look at example. Peter Brock, can you seriously tell me that the cars he drove were more important than the driver? 99% of people would not even know what he drove but they know the name.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Casper

Afraid not, let's look at example. Peter Brock, can you seriously tell me that the cars he drove were more important than the driver? 99% of people would not even know what he drove but they know the name.

Can't agree with you there mate, Brockie was synonymous with Holden (except for those years when he went weird with pyramids and things and ended up in a Sierra) and undoubtedly helped sell large numbers of Holdens to the Aussie public.

We all know the old saying, "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday!"

I think we can safely say that tin top racing, be it GT or Touring Cars, is about the cars first, the driver second (if at all).

Open wheel racing, on the other hand, is about the driver or team, as the cars are nothing that Joe Public can relate to as something they can own and drive.

And that is why I started this thread - personally I feel that it is farcical to talk about DNA in a race car that is like a road car in looks only and has been contrived to be exactly as fast as all the others, if you want your racing to be about the car, not the driver, forget parity and look at those amazing GT cars that we saw on the weekend. Ignore the niggles about the safety cars and remember that touring car racing always used to be like that too.

Great stuff!

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Can't agree with you there mate, Brockie was synonymous with Holden (except for those years when he went weird with pyramids and things and ended up in a Sierra) and undoubtedly helped sell large numbers of Holdens to the Aussie public.

We all know the old saying, "Win on Sunday, sell on Monday!"

I think we can safely say that tin top racing, be it GT or Touring Cars, is about the cars first, the driver second (if at all).

Open wheel racing, on the other hand, is about the driver or team, as the cars are nothing that Joe Public can relate to as something they can own and drive.

And that is why I started this thread - personally I feel that it is farcical to talk about DNA in a race car that is like a road car in looks only and has been contrived to be exactly as fast as all the others, if you want your racing to be about the car, not the driver, forget parity and look at those amazing GT cars that we saw on the weekend. Ignore the niggles about the safety cars and remember that touring car racing always used to be like that too.

Great stuff!

Without looking it up, how many times did Brock win Bathurst and how many times has holden won Bathurst? the average longish term fans knows Brock won 9, Ask me how many lowndes won? Or whincup or Johnson or Perkins or Richards (eitehr of them) I can tell yo off the top of my head, But i will have to look up the cars to get a number. Thus the driver is more important than the car

If you love the win on sunday buy on monday, head down the street and buy the $500k AMG. It doesnt look like the car on the track . but its the same DNA. The Mercedes dealer didnt even know the race had been on

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by peckstar

If you love the win on sunday buy on monday, head down the street and buy the $500k AMG. It doesnt look like the car on the track . but its the same DNA. The Mercedes dealer didnt even know the race had been on

That is a disgrace! Mind you, the event is still "small" but hopefully will get bigger!

[socram]

I go to see the cars and if all the cars are the same, I don't bother going, regardless of who is driving.

Others go to support a driver or a make of car even if there are only two choices.

Room for both, but there is a simple reason why top level Classic racing has greater spectator numbers than Tier One - and it is not Kenny Smith.

[Goat Boy]

Yes, who knows who is actually driving any of the Central Muscle Cars, I just want the cool looking Mustang to win!

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by Casper

Afraid not, let's look at example. Peter Brock, can you seriously tell me that the cars he drove were more important than the driver? 99% of people would not even know what he drove but they know the name.

I first started following Peter Brock via the magazines Sports Car World, Wheels and Modern Motor because he was driving an Austin A30 and I owned one at the time. Then as he moved onto other cars and classes my interest was more focused on the driver and his skills rather than the machinery he was driving at the time.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

I first started following Peter Brock via the magazines Sports Car World, Wheels and Modern Motor because he was driving an Austin A30 and I owned one at the time. Then as he moved onto other cars and classes my interest was more focused on the driver and his skills rather than the machinery he was driving at the time.

But your interest was sparked by the car - I agree that tin-top drivers do have a following, but one that is built up by people following a car or team, it then develops a life of its own.

Both reasons for following motorsport are valid, but I guess the point I was making right at the start is that for a series like SuperTourers, I follow the drivers because they have parity in the cars. My point that I was arguing is that DNA is irrelevant if the cars have parity and share a common chassis, as it's not a true showing of that manufacturer's ability to build a fast race car.

Which is fine, I enjoy ST's because it's good racing and the cars look nice and sound nice and they're fast, but it's a different type of enjoyment to that which I get from CMC's, where it really is all about the car, as is the XTreme GT class.

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

There's a slight difference, in the fact that all the players on a footy team are in the spotlight together, with a similar role each (i wont use the term equal, because some have a specific purpose)

My point was, there are behind the scenes people that work their ass off to get .1 of a second out of the car, for the driver to get the glory of showing that speed. And is also the reason i used tennis as the comparison (since its a single competitor in the spotlight, without a team of personnel working on the racket)

Yeah because my view is the second option. Everyone involved in a team is all about getting the car to win. Despite the fact that it may not be their primary intention.

Originally Posted by Casper

Afraid not, let's look at example. Peter Brock, can you seriously tell me that the cars he drove were more important than the driver? 99% of people would not even know what he drove but they know the name.

I think you've missed my point. Brock may get all the public adulation and legendary status, but the fact is, the Bathurst 1000 is a CAR race, not a DRIVER race. Brock is nothing without a car, just some bloke who lives out in the sticks in Whittlesea. Maybe other people find other aspects of motorsport they have a bigger interest in, but nothing takes away the fact it's called CAR RACING. CAR RACING is a "MOTOR" sport. It's not a sport, it's a motorsport. They are separate nouns. It'[s a weird mix, but the car is first, driver is secondary.

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Tennis/golf are about the players. The racquet/club are tools used by the players. "Car" racing is about...cars. the driver is a tool used by the car, even though the car is not a living thing.

Since I couldn't edit it and a mod won't. Forget the bold and replace it with "a driver is the one using a car."

[socram]

Years ago, I was a BRM fan and having stencilled "Tony Brooks" on my ex war surplus haversack (this was before modern backpacks), the week after, he retired! So I painted "Graham Hill" on instead.

When Graham jumped ship to Lotus, I was still a BRM fan, but also a Graham Hill fan. So, even on a personal level, room for both.

[Goat Boy]

Yes I think that is the case too, you start off following a car or team, but after you get to know the driver you follow them as well, even if they move.