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Old 3 Oct 2004, 16:41 (Ref:1114099)   #1
red5pete
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Castle Combe and Incident Officers

Had a great day of close motorsport at Castle Combe in the Formula Ford Carnival yesterday, but the whole day was overshadowed. Incident Officers, I had one yesterday that spoke to me as if I was a trainee, everytime we had an incident he would run around shouting at everyone. I have 11 years marshalling experience and have found that this experience is becoming common. I go marshalling to enjoy motorsport and to help competitors race in a safe environment. Its made me think about becoming a flag marshall so I have nothing to do with IO`s directly.

Has anyone else had similar experiences and how did they deal with them.
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Old 3 Oct 2004, 17:11 (Ref:1114115)   #2
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At Oulton we managed to avoid IO's until a few years ago, however I came accross one at the Birmingham Superprix, and had a very similar experiance. I just took him to one side and explained that if he did not trust what we could do maybe he should talk it over with the Observer. If he did trust us then shut the **** up an let us get on with our jobs. It seemed to work. i eventually became an IO. I never had any complaints. The problem is some people should never get that qualification even if they are experianced, not everybody can manage people. Maybe you should discuss this problem with the regional training officer.
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Old 3 Oct 2004, 18:30 (Ref:1114185)   #3
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Some clubs don't even recognise the IO grade, kinda says it all, whatever happened to the go old grade of assistant observer, I guess some people just love the word officer in the title, I have crossed swords with many an IO in my time so I know how you feel.

That aside, cracking meeting at Combe - Balders
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Old 3 Oct 2004, 18:52 (Ref:1114203)   #4
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Pete, Where were you at Combe, and who was the IO, I only Marshal at Combe and have never had that trouble, The IO may not have been from Combe (So you may find him again!), I was at Folly, Was a great day, It looked like they were going to red flag the race every lap in the Formula fords!!!

Have to agree though, some people just love authority!

If you know his name I'll have a word with Adrian if you want, After all, we don't need Marshals scaring off!!
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Old 3 Oct 2004, 19:46 (Ref:1114239)   #5
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Re: Castle Combe and Incident Officers

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Originally posted by red5pete
Has anyone else had similar experiences and how did they deal with them.
The answer is yes and so I try to preempt any problems during the briefing. If the IO does not actually state the info I'm looking for, then I have this line:

"Which type of IO are you? Shall we wait for you to join us before going trackside or do you just want us to get on with it?"

This seems to serve two purposes;

1) Lets me (and everyone else) know just what page we are all going to be working from and.....

2) Gives the IO a chance to possibly state " I trust you guys, just get on with it" or not as the case may be.

At least if we all know the "rules" before the first session we can be prepared for what may happen, either trackside or on-the-bank.

Don't forget though, some IO's may not be that experienced, either at venue or in general, and so may be feeling very self-concious. (I know I did when I was first made IO at a circuit I had never been to!!).
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Old 3 Oct 2004, 19:48 (Ref:1114240)   #6
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Before we had IO's at Oulton most observers would pick one of the more experianced Fire marshals to oversee the track and any incidents. it was like an IO without the title. It worked much better, as people were not power crazed.
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Old 3 Oct 2004, 20:24 (Ref:1114271)   #7
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I would like to thank all the marshals that helped me out of the car after the incident at Tower in the Carnival final. You were all brillient. very professional and quick to react. Although it was a wierd experiance seeing 6 or 7 marshals round the cockpit trying to talk to me when I came round!!!

After Paul hit me when he spun he then hit the back of me when I was already in the wall and the impact snapped the bell housing in 2...

Thank you all again.

PS does any body have any pics of the crash or have any contacts that do?
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 06:58 (Ref:1114586)   #8
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As I mostly marshal at Silverstone I have always had IO's and I actually find it strange not to have one. I have never has the experience talked about above but then I am a newish marshal so that could be why. Also I have never found any to be "power crazed" either.
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 08:13 (Ref:1114623)   #9
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As in all walks of life, you get some people who are good at what they do and some who are not.

As an IO I try to work with the experience within the team, if a relatively in-experienced team then i give it "wait for me", if i have an experienced team then i give it "its your incident so get on with it", and will only 'interfere' if necessary.
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 11:32 (Ref:1114779)   #10
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I don't agree with IOs-the observer is in charge of his/her corner-let them allocate their personnel and tell them how he/she wants incidents handled-if they appoint a deputy-all well and good but nothing should undermine the authority of the observer
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 11:43 (Ref:1114788)   #11
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Was observing at Oulton on Saturday with an IO as usual. Not until I came to sign his card did I realise that it was his first signature. Excellent job done in total agreement with the observers and the incident marshals.

When it works well I rather like the Oulton set up and think it gets the best of both worlds. I suppose that if it works badly it's my fault and I should sort it out. (Well anyway, my responsibility. )

Regards

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Old 4 Oct 2004, 12:42 (Ref:1114828)   #12
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Well said Don - Balders
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 13:27 (Ref:1114875)   #13
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You must also remember that the IO is actually under the the control of the Observer and as such the Observer can help if there is a problem.

As an X Observer i have worked at many circuits with IO s and never had a problem with any of them, most are just enthusiasts like myself.

They are your ASS Observer with a different title thats all.

If there is no IO just appoint an incident officer to oversee any incidents.

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Old 4 Oct 2004, 15:50 (Ref:1114994)   #14
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Re: Castle Combe and Incident Officers

Quote:
Originally posted by red5pete
Has anyone else had similar experiences and how did they deal with them.
I haven't had a similar experience, but I had a trainee working with me on Saturday who had the same problem at the Oulton TOCA meeting. One of his comments was that if it had been his first day's marshalling, it would also have been his last; fortunately, he's done enough meetings to know that such people are few & far between.(I should point out that the IO in question is NOT an Oulton regular!)

If I found myself in that position, I think I'd have a quiet word with the observer; if it happened at a two-day meeting, I'd ask for a move on the second day, & explain why.

Maybe I've been lucky; I've never worked with a bad IO - I've worked with several very good ones!

Quote:
Originally posted by jim69
Before we had IO's at Oulton most observers would pick one of the more experianced Fire marshals to oversee the track and any incidents. it was like an IO without the title. It worked much better, as people were not power crazed.
That applies to a certain extent now. At the meetings where IOs are in short supply, red badges ('fire' marshals) are used as ersatz IOs - I've found myself in that position on a few occasions this year. Of course, when IOs are in short supply, so are incident marshals, so it's not 'real' IO-ing - a 'team' of one is easy to manage! Perhaps as well really, as I haven't done IO training.....looks like that's next year's training day sorted, then! (If you're lurking, TG, no, I haven't changed my mind! )

Last edited by Dave Brand; 4 Oct 2004 at 15:54.
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 16:27 (Ref:1115023)   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Redracer77
I would like to thank all the marshals that helped me out of the car after the incident at Tower in the Carnival final. You were all brillient. very professional and quick to react. Although it was a wierd experiance seeing 6 or 7 marshals round the cockpit trying to talk to me when I came round!!!

After Paul hit me when he spun he then hit the back of me when I was already in the wall and the impact snapped the bell housing in 2...

Thank you all again.

PS does any body have any pics of the crash or have any contacts that do?
I will make your thanks known!
I could see it from a distance, was very worrying for a while
I'll keep an eye out for pics and let you know if any turn up.
Lee
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 16:30 (Ref:1115027)   #16
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It looks as if there is a 50/50 spread of marshalls having had bad experiences and some not. I too have met some very good IOs who have made me feel part of the team, and have had respect for my experience. Maybe I am getting old in my ways but I prefered it when we didn`t have power crazy IO`s, and just had experienced Observers.

Once again what a great years motorsport at Combe and can`t wait for next year, best club motorsport in the UK.
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 17:28 (Ref:1115082)   #17
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I think the I/O grade is one of the most difficult jobs on them all.

Leadership is a very difficult art to master, and it rarely comes naturally. Often an I/O is a marshal who is doing his or her best to lead a team, without the benefit of experience.

It's a very easy trap to fall into to think barking a constant stream of orders is providing leadership. While the I/O assumes he/she is just giving clear instructions as to what they want from their team, the team can very easily read much more into the way that instruction is presented than what is actually said.

I know a person who constantly has that problem. They have on many occasions tried to pass on to me the benefit of many years experience, however, the style of presentation leaves a lot to be desired. The result is that I leave the conversations feeling bullied and intimidated, which can have the sad result that I either ignore or rebel against the advice despite the quality of the information I've been given.

My professional life relies upon me being able to communicate complex concepts in a favourable way. It's a skill that I've been trying to develop for many years and cannot claim to have mastered. However, the most beneficial training I've ever had for this skill was when my company sent me on a communication skills course and they took a video tape of me trying to explain a concept that I am very familiar with. It was quite shocking how bad I was at it, until I was shown the evidence. I do wonder if it wouldn't harm some I/Os, Observers, Chief Marshals and Clarks to have a similar experience.
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Old 4 Oct 2004, 18:13 (Ref:1115128)   #18
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Go here, there may be some of you on there, but there's none of your incident
http://www.ireay.co.uk/MotorSport/Motorsport_2004.htm
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Old 5 Oct 2004, 14:05 (Ref:1115945)   #19
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Marshals @ Combe - big thanks for a super job on the weekend, the Marshalls at tower I had ago at for moving my car - apologise , you have your job to do and I am very greatful, however damage to the car was not on my agenda on Saturday, so thanks for getting me going again.


the rest of the guys, you all got a clap and wave from me on the ff1600 final slow down lap, you all deserved it, rarley have I seen such a tough day for the marshall.

you've done a great job for us all season, and it is appricaited.

Thanks for the efforts.
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Old 6 Oct 2004, 09:47 (Ref:1116645)   #20
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So what exactly is the role of an I.O.? As I see it, they oversee incident handling to ensure the rest of the guys can do the job safely, and make decisions like 'This ain't budging, guys, we've got to try something else'. I believe another I.O. funcion is team building - getting a bond between everyone on post to build trust - unlike an I.O. I had a Donington in me & hubby's year as trainees who never spoke to us all day!
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Old 6 Oct 2004, 12:44 (Ref:1116864)   #21
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So what exactly is the role of an I.O.? As I see it, they oversee incident handling to ensure the rest of the guys can do the job safely, and make decisions like 'This ain't budging, guys, we've got to try something else'. I believe another I.O. funcion is team building - getting a bond between everyone on post to build trust - unlike an I.O. I had a Donington in me & hubby's year as trainees who never spoke to us all day!
Completely agree with you - I always say in my briefings that the chances are I won't be first on the scene (I don't do running) but I'll back you up when I get there. I'll make the decisions that need taking and give it out thanks and praise where it's due. Also spend time talking to everyone through the day and most especially talking to novices. Also talk to the flaggies and observers if they are on their own. I do have comments from people about not wanting to be with I.O.'s because they don't like the way they work, but unless we get more people so that we can have a proper mentoring scheme the Observers will have to take on this role to teach the job.
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Old 6 Oct 2004, 20:11 (Ref:1117321)   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by darcym
Marshals @ Combe - big thanks for a super job on the weekend, the Marshalls at tower I had ago at for moving my car - apologise , you have your job to do and I am very greatful, however damage to the car was not on my agenda on Saturday, so thanks for getting me going again.


the rest of the guys, you all got a clap and wave from me on the ff1600 final slow down lap, you all deserved it, rarley have I seen such a tough day for the marshall.

you've done a great job for us all season, and it is appricaited.

Thanks for the efforts.
Two thank you's from drivers in one place - unheard of! Seriously it is nice to know that you notice us, and sometimes remember to wave at the end of the race. After a day standing on the bank in all weathers, a wave goes a long way.
In the heat of the moment it is easy to let the mouth run away, its very hard to come back after that. Now talk to the TVR's...
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