History of a Lola T492 Sports 2000 chassis?

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

Not nominally maybe, but look for sales of T490s or, less likely in my view, T492s, to John Webb, Motor Circuit Developments (MCD), Jackie Epstein, Epstein Enterprises, Epstein Cuthbert Racing, Motor Racing Stables (MRS), etc., etc., etc. I can remember seeing the school cars parked up at Brands Hatch, so they must have come from somewhere!

I have photo of me in one somewhere. They where used to give rides round the track in the early 80's. Will post it if your interested.

I don't think a sports 2000 would have been able to run as a true group 6 car in the WEC, the 2 litre class was normally the domain of Lola 290 (etc) and Chevron B2??.

The sports 2000 cars were only used to make up the numbers in a few races in the early 80s before Grp C become the main class. Lancia LC1 being the ultimate example.

[Clive Brown]

That more-or-less accords with my own memory of events. The S2000 cars appeared in long-distance sports car races and Blundersports to make up numbers in the early eighties. I believe that's where 911thillclimber's car came from.

Please post picture of yourself in School car.... should be possible to tell if it is a base T490!

[911thillclimber]

490's easy to spot with the front rad slot in the nose and solid side pod panels.

The 10 x 490's are:

J Webb MCD (April 1977)
John Brown Wheels
Heini Madar
Devina Galica
Bowmaker
Tolman Holdings
Monroe Textiles
John Brown Wheels
JC Racing
Quinton Hazell (13 5 1977)

I know the tolman car was raced by some good drivers and tiff Needell too!

My car has the large tube rear frame which came in about HU60 ish, before that the cars had 1" Sq tube rear frames that were prone to fatigue cracking by the bulkhead. (ref: a very knowledgable Lola expert source).

Right: off to sift through the paper pieces.

[Clive Brown]

The Davina Galica car was effectively a Brands Hatch car, so that makes HU1 and HU4 at Brands. Any T492s to similar-sounding names?

If it's got a front rad., it's almost certainly a T490, but the opposite does not apply, because I understand that the factory made kits to update the T490 to T492 spec.

[911thillclimber]

That is correct, many 490's were converted using a factory conversion Kit, i can think of someone with just that on his 490 in Canada!

Don't have time to post tonight, but sifted through the paper pieces, and a few interesting new details are there.
Will collate and post tomorrow.

Also found Alan H's phone number and a few others.

The Humphries car came with a Hart!
Dennis raced in FF Libre (is there such a class in 85?)
Mountune did the 1800 turbo.
ADA did the front suspension and a few other details from people of the period, but i feel memories are stretched and possibly unreliable (or perfect)

It is best to list what people have said as there are few datelines to the comments.

Could be a long post.

Still an interesting 'Who dunnit'; where will it lead us to?

I still have a wild shot happening in the wings.
If it works it will be quite a funny ending to the Chassis number hunt.

Will we get there before 100,000 hits?

[Clive Brown]

I would be very surprised indeed if the T492 from Dennis Humphries really did come with a Hart. The Humberstones already had one 420R which was used in Rob Mason's Stiletto in 1979, and acquired another one when they bought Tony Dickinson's Skoda, which I believe was complete when they bought it. I can't believe that a car advertised as a Sports 2000 roller would have had a 420R in it, because (a) the wheels, tyres, and brakes would have been too small, and (b) with an engine in it, it's not really a roller any more....

[Tim Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

I can't believe that a car advertised as a Sports 2000 roller would have had a 420R in it, because (a) the wheels, tyres, and brakes would have been too small, and (b) with an engine in it, it's not really a roller any more....

Where was it advertised as a roller?

[Clive Brown]

I believe it was advertised as such in Autosport, although I stand to be corrected on this.

Anyway, if it had a Hart 420R in it, it couldn't very well be advertised as a Sports 2000, could it? There was a certain degree of cheating in S2000, but a Hart 420R really would be extracting the urine....

[911thillclimber]

Here goes then, all the snippets and i hope there is enough from here to get a clear picture.

I will assume we know noything, so some of these details are well known.

- David Enderby ran a Black Ghia bodied Tiga SC79
- David auger built a 1300cc Skoda on a T 492
- A replica of the Enderby Ghia was made by Fibresport in 1985
This body was mounted to a t 492 by Tony Harman and John Scheneider
for Alan Humberstone. It had a BDG /FT 200

- from Tony Harman:
In 85/86 the T 492 was built and painted Pink with a huge black rear wing.
- from a tele call to John Scheneider
The Lola was bought by Harry Humberstone, Alan's father.
The chassis had a Hart 2 litre and then an 1800cc Cosworth
He thought maybe thatAlan H had a Skoda on a T 492 that had a Hart or a BDG.
When the car had the Ghia body on it it was stored in Kent with a BDH 1300 turbo.

- Tony Dickinson built 2 Skodas, one on an F2 Chassis in 1978, and one on a T 490, the latter with a Hart engine in 1979.
There was a third...no info.
The car's front end was Ralt and a the rear was March F2.
The T490 HU6 was bought from Ted Tolman.
TD's Skoda was rebodied with the Ghia body.
Alan H raced the Ghia, crashed it at Lydden on the drivers side.
The car was sold to Brian Davis of Autoquip who put a Cosworth/FT 200 in it.
Mike bought the car from Brian and then after some 7 years sold it to 911 hillclimber.

From a tele conversation with Tony Dickinson:

His old Skoda he sold to Harry H was 'destroyed' by Alan at Lydden. The car had a Hart in it.
The T 490 was driven by Brian Enton, Rag Doogle, Pat Symonds and Rory Burn while the car was with Ted Tolman.

The Skoda had AP brakes then.

- from a difficult conversation with Brian Davis;

He had a T 492
He thinks it came from Chris alford who was racing in F2 but was involved in S2000 from its start. Chris worked for the Barnet motor Company

- from Chris Alford:

He thought the T 492 Alan H had was a T 492 from someone in Herne Bay/Whitstable area, and that a Tony Baskill might have had it.
It had an orange body.
Chris agreed with my understanding of the car's history and could add that there were 2 T 492's for sale at the time

1
A car owned by Waine Wainwright who also raced a Mexico in the past and then F3
He raced S2000 in 78 and was sponsored by Birmingham Radio (BRMB)/Sparkrite. The body was orange.
2
Matt Moseley/Dug Moseley who was a dealer at the time in the midlands.
Car was yellow.
3
He mentioned a John Painton and an tony Baskerville
4
A car in Tunbridge Wells and an Ian Connal

- from a detailed tele call from Alan Humberstone who had been made aware of the car seen on 10/10ths:

He wrote off the T Dickinson Skoda at Lydden and it was a nasty crash. The tub was scrap and so was he nearly. (this would be the T 490 HU6)
The 'new' tub had the T 490 parts transfered to it. Some work was done by a Chris Cranford in London on the front suspension which was a nightmare to resolve (bump steer). Was Chris part of a company called ADA?
The 'new' car came from Whitstable but could not recall the sellers name, but Tony Baskill was mentioned. The Lola body was Orange.
Mountune did the engine (did not say which engine)
Brands Hatch was the first race with the Ghia T 492.

The Ghia car was sold to Brian Davis in 2001.
It was stored for 4 to 6 months and the body was crushed by a car lift.

- from 10/10ths

Tim Wilkinson finds some t 492's for sale in 85 in old Autosports.

1
A Dennis Humphries had a Chevron and Lola for sale.

The Lola was a T 492 raced in 1980 Thundersports Class B.
It had F3 wheels, long range tank for £4500.
2
There was another T 491 for sale in South fleet with a holbay engine.

Dennis raced FF Libre @ Lydden.

Colin PooleRacing has a T 490 car crashed for sale just after Alan H's Skoda crash (HU6)

- from conversations/emails with mike who sold it to me.

Mike bought the Lola with a crushed white Ghia body in 2002 from a Brian Davis.(who he seemed to know well).
The car was a T 492 and was once owned by Alan Humberstone. It had a 500 bhp cosworth engine and FT 200.
Mike offered the car to me with a Sierra Cosworth engine with turbo and FT 200 that he had installed.
The car had no chassis plate when he bought it from Brian.

- from Autosport magazine (I think from Tim Wilkinson)

Picture and words of the Ghia's first race.
It said that the crash of Alan in the Skoda was in 1985. The Ghia was to have the 420 R Hart from the wreck but has a mountune prepped BDT (450 bhp ' 1.5Bar). Gearbox is FT 200 but an auto bax was being thought about.
Alan was living in Spain by this time.

- from Mike out of the blue:

Mike finds a hand written data sheet of T 492 HU72 which is a hillclimb Lola run by Ian Fidoe 9who i know and have discussed the car with)

I know this car has been rebuilt and running currently in S2000 Pinto class.
Mike cannot recall just why he has this paper. I have sent the paper to the owner of HU 72.


Phew!
There you go, all the scrappy bits I have.

Digest and come to some conclusion!! (I dare you)

Graham.

(and to think i nearly bought a totally complete Ginetta G22
S2000 5 days before...)

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

That more-or-less accords with my own memory of events. The S2000 cars appeared in long-distance sports car races and Blundersports to make up numbers in the early eighties. I believe that's where 911thillclimber's car came from.

Please post picture of yourself in School car.... should be possible to tell if it is a base T490!

Not sure when this taken, but suspect it was about 1980

[911thillclimber]

Certainly a 492!
I think one on here owns that car, now in Canada.

I think Devina drove it.

I hope Clive is digesting all that info above...

[oneofapair]

I recall seeing pink version in the Brands Hatch scrutineering bay (probably the meeting that B/W autosport picture came from).and my recollection was that it had a Sierra Cosworth engine in the back. Long while ago though!!

[Nordic]

The 'new' tub had the T 490 parts transfered to it. Some work was done by a Chris Cranford in London on the front suspension which was a nightmare to resolve (bump steer). Was Chris part of a company called ADA?

Chris Crawford was part of ADA.

[morninggents]

Graham, totally fascinating. Please don't stop the search.

[911thillclimber]

I started this little question in May 2008.
The car as a whole has somewhat dominated my leisure life. It was so very simple when i hillclimbed my 911 and the Impreza (though the latter was quite a pain), but this Lola has been a real trial for many many reasons, most of which I've openly shared here.

I thought this Chassis number quest would be the easy bit.....engines and gearboxes the tricky bit, and being able to actually drive the thing the very hard bit.

Shows how little I know.
Nothing is easy about this car.



I'm worried that Clive has been quiet.

I can only stop when I've found the real answer to the number.

[Clive Brown]

(i) The car never had a BDG.

(ii) The car never had a 1300 BDH turdbo. It was stored in Kent with a BDT.

(iii) Dickinson had three Skodas. The first was the ex-AlecPoole/Chris Meek car, the second was built on the ex-Cloud Engineering T29x, and the third on T490/HU6. The latter two cars both used Hart 420Rs. Where does this built on an F2 chassis in 1978 nonsense come from? It wasn't.

(iv) Alan did not crash the KG at Lydden Hill. He crashed the TD Skoda at Lydden Hill. The car was rebuilt onto a T492 chassis by ???, still with a Hart 420R. That car was rebodied by H&S as a KG. Later on, someone else fitted a Mountune BDT to the car, in which form it ran at Brands.

(v) The Toleman names are Brian Henton, Rad Dougall,Pat Symonds, and Rory Byrne.

(vi) Tony Baskerville, Wayne Wainright, Dud Moseley, possibly John Poynton as a sponsor, Ian Connel. Chris Crawford at ADA.

(vii) If bumpsteer was such a problem, how come TD was so successsful in the car? it suggests to me that when the wreck of T490/HU6 was rebuilt onto T492/HUxxx, Harry Humberstone had a hand in the design work.

(viii) F Libre was a popular programme closer at Lydden.

These are my observations; I look forward to being shot down!

[911thillclimber]

I think now you can all see how confusing these snippets/stories are about the car.
Just how many people can you have surrounding a little club type racer?

Someone on here said the Lolas had their chassis numbers repeated on the front roll cage hoop, but even that was removed!

From all the calls i made, John Sch was the most thoughtful on the number and he could remeber it having one one (as per Tony Harman's pics) and though he might have some bits of the conversion in his garage, but admitted his memory was not the best.

There seems to have been a lot of people in the rebuild after the Skoda crunch involved. Tony and john did the re-body, someone else the transfer over of the chassis parts/engine.

Alan H told me he spent a lot of money, i think he said 20K (!) on the front end suspension. There are a few washers to tune the bump steer (the rack control arms are very short), but Sean at McClurge Motorsport had no issues with the alignment.
The car drives really well.

So: did the plate come off the car to go onto a new tub for someone else's 492?
Why else would you bother drilling out the rivits and removing it? There is nothing to hide or gain other than selling it to another tub owner?

Perplexing.

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by 911thillclimber

So: did the plate come off the car to go onto a new tub for someone else's 492?
Why else would you bother drilling out the rivits and removing it? There is nothing to hide or gain other than selling it to another tub owner?

Perplexing.

The only gain is normally money.

Maybe the new chassis was one that had a previous life, an insurance claim following a crash possibly. I think if any 492's had been stolen you would have found out by now.

Another reason is an import/export scam. Maybe you don't want to find out the true history of the chassis and the destination of the original plates!

One question I cant see has been resolved is where is HU6 now. Is it possible that HU6 after its crash at Lydden was the subject of a claim and assumed destroyed. but the damage was repaired and the Humberstones allowed to keep the damaged tub, but only after the plates were removed.

Sorry if this has been covered before, but in 50 odd pages there is alot of chatter to go thru!

[Tim Wilkinson]

From Autosport 5th September '85.

[Tim Wilkinson]

The Dennis Humphries advert - 24th October '85

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by Tim Wilkinson

From Autosport 5th September '85.

I wonder if this isn't a red herring, as the car AH crashed was clearly an unconverted T490, and moreover, would not have had T490 suspension on it. What would have been left was a shunted, bare, monocoque, with few, if any, salvageable bits attached.

[Clive Brown]

And another thing.... was the chassis plate visible in the H&S pictures the chassis plate we have hitherto assumed to be that of the donor T492, or actually that from T490/HU6 moved across by whoever rebuilt the Humberstone's Skoda onto its replacement chassis?

[Tim Wilkinson]

What suspension was on it before it crashed (still as the Skoda) at Lydden? What was on it later? Why would Alan H spend 20k, or swap it at all, if it worked for TD?

I'm sure I found a more detailed, later, advert from Colin Pool or someone else selling a damaged 490, but I don't seem to have scanned it.

[911thillclimber]

You know that is an interesting thought.

The Alan H crash was in the T490 of TD. Fact.
The car was repaired using the orange lola S2000 bodied car from Dennis in Herne bay.
Alan told me the care used was complete (I presume as a T 492), and the suspension transfered over fron HU6 to HU XX

Tony Harmond's picture clearly show a chassis plate in several shots he took and I've show on here.
So, after suspension transfer the car comes to Tony and John for a fresh body, the Ghia.

The car has a plate.

It just might actually be T 490 HU6 from the crashed tub onto the donar car, but why do that? The Dennis car presumably had a plate so why not leave it on?
Possibly HU 6 is of value due to it's provenence in 1985, so went to the rebuilt HU6 tub.
No HU6 was registered on the Lola Archives untill I erronously claimed it thinking my car was the T 490 HU6 untill Alan H's tele call telling me the missing link, The Herne Bay car.

Some time there must be a break in this loop.

I ponder:

Get Tony's pics, get a simple 800X microscope and see if the number is visible on those analogue photographs?
A bit CSI, a bit James Bond, but feasable?

Now if that gave the plate number I'm home and dry, but taking Tim's points, i just might not like the result, but i don't have to go public.

The chassis number is not going to increase this hot-rod's value, just make it complete.

This is the cars true value to me:

[Clive Brown]

The TD car bearing chassis number HU6, if indeed it did, must have had much bigger brakes than a standard Sports 2000.

My thoughts are that the ex-TD car had different front and rear suspension. After Little Al's shunt, I suspect it was not replaced like-for-like, which might explain just why the car jumped all over the place under braking.