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Old 26 Jan 2020, 02:57 (Ref:3953631)   #151
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Originally Posted by Forda View Post
Nissan received a benefit as a byproduct of 888 looking after their own interests, first and foremost.

As Nissan were never going to be an outright threat to anyone, the whole situation worked out well for 888.
Who the **** goes racing to look after other teams interests? I don't see Penske looking out for Nissan?

Also, nice moving of the goldposts to avoid the fact that I pointed out that your point was utterly invalid.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 03:24 (Ref:3953636)   #152
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All in the past now.

New system, new aero targets, teams aren't directly invt with the final outcome. Apples, and oranges.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 08:52 (Ref:3953648)   #153
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
All in the past now.

New system, new aero targets, teams aren't directly invt with the final outcome. Apples, and oranges.
You're dreamin if you think this issue will ever be in the past, we're just gearing up for another round.
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Old 26 Jan 2020, 10:15 (Ref:3953661)   #154
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
Who the **** goes racing to look after other teams interests? I don't see Penske looking out for Nissan?
888 do, albeit inadvertently.
You said so yourself, remember?
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Very annoying that we saw the Nissans only match the field when Roland effectively lobbied for them.

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Also, nice moving of the goldposts to avoid the fact that I pointed out that your point was utterly invalid.
You did? What, when you were quoting yourself?
If so, you didn't do a very good job of it then.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 11:08 (Ref:3953983)   #155
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Originally Posted by Mixer View Post
BANG ON.

F1 teams validate their wind tunnel work, with coastdown tests and straight line running.

Adrian Burgess is ex F1, as is Tim Edwards and probably others. They know way more than a bunch of monkeys on keyboards that wouldn't know a wind tunnel from the sock in their bottom drawer.
Looked in the mirror lately?
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 11:34 (Ref:3953986)   #156
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Originally Posted by Jerico View Post
Evidently the 17 car had the only chassis built stateside.
Source?

Sounds rather made up...

DJRTP chassis are supplied as a complete spaceframe by PACE Innovations, i.e., it's the most straightforward way you could receive a spaceframe -- as a complete unit from control supplier.

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DJR Team Penske will have Gold Coast-based Pace Innovations continue to build its chassis, with the first car now on the jig and scheduled to hit the track early next season.
https://www.supercars.com/news/champ.../?sf17445918=1

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Shell V-Power Racing already had a new Pace Innovations-constructed chassis at its workshop, which had been painted ready to be built-up into a complete car.
https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...mustang-build/

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[Tickford] is set to wheel out its spare Mustang, which was last seen as a wildcard with Thomas Randle at the wheel at the OTR SuperSprint in August. That car has a long history, having been the first Car of the Future-spec Falcon FG to be completed by the team in 2012, before being upgraded to an FG X and eventually a Mustang.
https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...mustang-build/


As Mostert racing an 8 year old car shows, it goes without saying that all COTF chassis are the same, and there is no disadvantage or advantage to using one chassis over another, assuming it has been correctly repaired to the original specification following major crashes.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 27 Jan 2020 at 11:41.
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 11:43 (Ref:3953989)   #157
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Originally Posted by Compromised View Post
All I'm getting out of the latest VCAT is the Mustang had an unfair advantage in 2019, up to and including the last few races and only now is it rectified (otherwise no changes would have been necessary).

So essentially a whole season of Holden based competitors being shafted.
Somehow you make no mention of a whole season of Ford and Nissan runners being shafted in 2018, when the ZB Commodore had an unfair COG and aerodynamic advantage.

How curious...
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 17:42 (Ref:3954074)   #158
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Somehow you make no mention of a whole season of Ford and Nissan runners being shafted in 2018, when the ZB Commodore had an unfair COG and aerodynamic advantage.

How curious...
Point taken and I definitely agree. I guess it shows the infamous VCAT testing was a problem long before Penske/ the Mustang came along.

Remember though, Nissan didn't lobby to be "unshafted" so that's on them...
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Old 27 Jan 2020, 19:10 (Ref:3954089)   #159
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I may have just missed it but i have seen no mention of reduction of COG ballast. Surely with no Nissans racing, the Opal should be able to remove all of its ballast and the Mustang reduce down to the difference between the two.
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Old 2 Feb 2020, 08:07 (Ref:3955245)   #160
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Source?

Sounds rather made up...

DJRTP chassis are supplied as a complete spaceframe by PACE Innovations, i.e., it's the most straightforward way you could receive a spaceframe -- as a complete unit from control supplier.


https://www.supercars.com/news/champ.../?sf17445918=1


https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...mustang-build/


https://www.supercars.com/news/champ...mustang-build/


As Mostert racing an 8 year old car shows, it goes without saying that all COTF chassis are the same, and there is no disadvantage or advantage to using one chassis over another, assuming it has been correctly repaired to the original specification following major crashes.
For a start my source was someone connected to motorsport in Australia but not directly involved with Supercars. The chassis thing in all fairness was a comment of a rumour, it wasn't stated as solid fact. I just floated it here as I knew one of our resident know it all's would put me straight in quick time. Congratulations.

Are 888 building their own chassis'? correct me if I'm wrong. In the beginning Pace were going to be the only supplier? then teams pushed to have that changed so they could build their own chassis' in house. I can't see any reason to so other than to gain an advantage or they were worried they could get Friday afternoons chassis.

Your comment that all the chassis' are the same is true to a point. For argument sake you take ten brand new hand built control chassis' from the current builders and flat patch them all. you put the same setup in all ten, and you use the same shocks-wheels and tyres- driver weight and fuel loads etc on the same scales and camber plates... for all ten cars, roll on roll off. I'd be surprised if the ride heights and corner weights were all the same across the ten. That's from experience.
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Old 2 Feb 2020, 08:51 (Ref:3955248)   #161
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Somehow you make no mention of a whole season of Ford and Nissan runners being shafted in 2018, when the ZB Commodore had an unfair COG and aerodynamic advantage.

How curious...
Your statement regarding the Ford & Nissan teams being shafted all of the 2018 season when the ZB was introduced a little puzzling. In the early stages of the 2018 season there were composite panels homologated for both the car's mentioned, interesting that both team had rejected the opportunity to homologate composite panels a year earlier. The push was coming from DJRTP. As Ryan Story stated, it was very important that the COG was sorted out as it's a major factor in any race car, and we need to make sure what is good for the gooes is also good for the gander. Ironic that only a year later DJRTP were bolting 28kg of lead into the roof of their new race car, and let's not forget this was after DJRTP had been ordered to remove the ballast weight from the exhausts. Imagine what the figures could have been if the COG test was done with the exhaust ballast still in?

After the Ford & Nissan's received their new panels the COG conversation stopped. This tells me both parties were satisfied with the outcome. The Kelly's stated that the lap times were so even across the brands that doing anything more was just splitting hairs. Also, when the COG tests were done in 2019 the ZB had to put 6.8kg into the roof of the car to match the Nissan. I'd say for sure had the FG-X been tested at the same time it too would have had to add weight to match the Nissan.

Then we move to the aero debate again. Where is the prof the ZB enjoyed a significant advantage over the other two brands? Other than Larkham talking up the ZB aero advantage we never really saw it on track. Larkham was saying how later in the season when the cars were running on the faster tracks with the longer straights we'd see the ZB come into it's own. Really? it didn't happen, I don't remember much at all being said about the straight line speed of the ZB.

So we have a FG-X win against the VF's in 2015. Then the VF's win 2016-17 against the FG-X. Then the new super fast ZB is introduced in 2018 still running against the FG-X and it doesn't win? don't come with the Scotty factor, as if that was true he'd of cleaned up big time the year earlier against the VF. And he'd have kept cleaning up right to the end of last season also, but he didn't.

Side note. I will be backing Andre Heimgatner in the Mustang this season.
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Old 4 Feb 2020, 10:53 (Ref:3955613)   #162
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Well said Jerico. Can't dispute the actual facts..................
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Old 4 Feb 2020, 13:32 (Ref:3955633)   #163
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Old 12 Feb 2020, 15:15 (Ref:3957238)   #164
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Originally Posted by Jerico View Post
Also, when the COG tests were done in 2019 the ZB had to put 6.8kg into the roof of the car to match the Nissan. I'd say for sure had the FG-X been tested at the same time it too would have had to add weight to match the Nissan.
The ZB had to have ballast as it had an advantage over the Altima. The Mustang had to have ballast as it had an even bigger advantage over the Altima. There is absolutely nothing to support your suggestion that the Falcon FGX had a COG advantage over the Altima. The ballasted muffler was permitted in the rules at the time and only raced by one team (hence not representative of the COG of all Falcons), and was a legitimate attempt to negate the ongoing COG advantage of the ZB Commodore (even after composite roof and bonnet were fitted to Falcon,).

Quote:
Then we move to the aero debate again. Where is the prof the ZB enjoyed a significant advantage over the other two brands?
888 themselves inferred the ZB was a significant improvement on the VF, and by extension FGX Falcon:

Quote:
Aerodynamics are subject to parity testing against the rival racers, but that testing covers only selected criteria, which means there are significant performance advantages to be made by developing a better aero package.

T8 hired an aerodynamicist from German racing operation HWA and invested heavily in Computational Fluid Dynamics modelling software to develop its package. CFD simulation was required to test the ZB’s aero pack because wind tunnel testing is banned under Supercars rules.

T8 is believed to have invested more than $1 million developing the ZB for Supercars racing, but it will make money back on that because it is the exclusive supplier of body panels and aero parts to Holden Supercars team.

Based on its small frontal area and huge rear wing with endplate mounting that will catch plenty of grip-generating wind mid-corner, the ZB is expected to be a very competitive Supercar.

Some Holden teams initially said they would stick with the VF for 2016, but the ZB’s expected aerodynamic advantages have clearly convinced them to make the switch, despite complaints about the cost T8 has been charging for parts.
https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...vealed-110646/

Jamie Whincup said:
Quote:
We’ve designed the aero package around the Next Gen Commodore, which is a hatch.. and it has nice air flow down over the rear wing.
Nick Percat said:
Quote:
VF to ZB I would say the first thing I have noticed in that I have a bit more confidence in coming into the corner. Everything is mechanically mint and now we are just coming to terms with the aero.
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...28618fbbf68e36
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Old 16 Feb 2020, 08:13 (Ref:3957785)   #165
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
The ZB had to have ballast as it had an advantage over the Altima. The Mustang had to have ballast as it had an even bigger advantage over the Altima. There is absolutely nothing to support your suggestion that the Falcon FGX had a COG advantage over the Altima. The ballasted muffler was permitted in the rules at the time and only raced by one team (hence not representative of the COG of all Falcons), and was a legitimate attempt to negate the ongoing COG advantage of the ZB Commodore (even after composite roof and bonnet were fitted to Falcon,).



888 themselves inferred the ZB was a significant improvement on the VF, and by extension FGX Falcon:


https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...vealed-110646/

Jamie Whincup said:


Nick Percat said:

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sp...28618fbbf68e36
My initial response was to your statement that the Ford and Nissan teams had been shafted for the whole of the 2018 season, by an unfair COG and aero advantage of the ZB Holden. I don't believe that to be true and I know that the on track results for 2018 season back up what I have outlined in my previous post.

You have used a couple of pre season comments to try and back up your statement, using the Whincup media release regarding the ZB, which was made before the season started. The part or word of that release that I focused on was, "expected" advantage over the VF. I'm sure his comments at the end of the season would have been more telling than his comments before the car had raced and I'm not entirely sure that the Whincup's comments gave any credence to your argument.

You're also putting weight behind the comment from Percat which was early in the season from the sounds of it, Percat stated that he feels a little more confident going into the corners with the ZB. This infers that the ZB has a different aero performance to the VF, bit it in no way implies that the ZB is significantly faster, race tracks are made up of more than just corners and when it comes to that there are many different types of corners.

I don't have proof that the FG-X had a better COG than the Nissan, just as you have no proof that backs up your statement that the Ford and the Nissan teams were shafted in the 2018 season by the ZB. I base my comments on a few things but I will mention two which I feel are the most important. Firstly I considered Kelly Racing who were running the Nissan, they are a team that seems to go about their business in a more laidback manner, never pushing the boundaries they turn up week after week and race what they have. Please remember this is only my opinion and I am not criticizing the team, or how they go about their work. Opposed to DJRTP who have been seen to push the rules and the boundaries to the limit, and sometimes a little over? I couldn't see DJRTP quietly running the FG-X season after season, if there was a hint that their car had the worst COG in pitlane, also I would expect a professional outfit like DJRTP to have maximized their car in this area, probably more so than FPR and Kelly Racing. Another consideration was when the Nissan and FG-X were homologated two years apart, with the Nissan being the first. History has shown that each homologation the car evolve, so it's unlikely that DJRTP FG-X would have been inferior to the Nissan in this area and race results back this up.

To my knowledge only the DJRTP Mustang was fitted with ballast exhaust and not their FG-X? Which was completely unnecessary with the huge advantage the Mustang already enjoyed, whilst the ballast exhaust may not have been illegal it wasn't legal either. Two rules you often find in the motor racing rulebooks, one is if it doesn't say you can then you can't, the other is a component must not have a secondary function, these two rules clear up a lot of grey area's

Taking everything into consideration I'd speculate that the smart money would most likely be on the DJRTP FG-X having the better COG than the Nissan.

I stand by the comments I made in my previous post and feel the facts back up what I have stated, I could go into more details and make other points, but I don't have the time or the inclination to get into a he said she said pointless debate, splitting hairs over maybe a couple of Kgs here or there from two seasons past

Last edited by Jerico; 16 Feb 2020 at 08:32.
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 00:57 (Ref:3957876)   #166
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The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Media fluff pieces should not be considered anecdotal evidence that one car will do this, and t'other that...
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 04:31 (Ref:3957893)   #167
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The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Indeed, if Commodore retains the unfair advantage it gained after the unprecedented and unwarranted Pukekohe upgrade package (with an outrageous 7 wins out of 9, despite Ford having all the best teams), it will be very upsetting for Ford supporters.
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 05:05 (Ref:3957897)   #168
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Indeed, if Commodore retains the unfair advantage it gained after the unprecedented and unwarranted Pukekohe upgrade package (with an outrageous 7 wins out of 9, despite Ford having all the best teams), it will be very upsetting for Ford supporters.
Might need to lay off the crack pipe dude.

If you look up irrational hyperbole in the dictionary, it should link to this post.
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 05:33 (Ref:3957901)   #169
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Indeed, if Commodore retains the unfair advantage it gained after the unprecedented and unwarranted Pukekohe upgrade package (with an outrageous 7 wins out of 9, despite Ford having all the best teams), it will be very upsetting for Ford supporters.
I wonder if they'll have review like they did for the commodore last year?
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 09:49 (Ref:3957958)   #170
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Indeed, if Commodore retains the unfair advantage it gained after the unprecedented and unwarranted Pukekohe upgrade package (with an outrageous 7 wins out of 9, despite Ford having all the best teams), it will be very upsetting for Ford supporters.
Really?? Team ( singular ) maybe, and that's arguable, but definitely not teams plural. Also, have you only watched the last 2 years? You might want to check out the last 10 years and see who was regularly at the pointy end of the field
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Old 17 Feb 2020, 09:50 (Ref:3957959)   #171
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Might need to lay off the crack pipe dude.

If you look up irrational hyperbole in the dictionary, it should link to this post.
Post of the year so far
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 12:54 (Ref:3958211)   #172
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To my knowledge only the DJRTP Mustang was fitted with ballast exhaust and not their FG-X? Which was completely unnecessary with the huge advantage the Mustang already enjoyed, whilst the ballast exhaust may not have been illegal it wasn't legal either.
Ryan Story stated that the exhaust was fitted during the last year of the FG-X as a result of the advantage of the Commodore.
It wasn't actually illegal when fitted, but was removed when the rulemakers threatened to ban it, citing it was against the spirit of the rules.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 13:24 (Ref:3958221)   #173
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Ryan Story stated that the exhaust was fitted during the last year of the FG-X as a result of the advantage of the Commodore.
"external ballast" is banned

Oh we just had a REALLY HEAVY exhaust

Not ballast, honest.
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Old 18 Feb 2020, 14:33 (Ref:3958239)   #174
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"external ballast" is banned

Oh we just had a REALLY HEAVY exhaust
Perfectly normal in motor racing. You seemed displeased by DJR Team Penske's entirely acceptable interpretation of the rules.

Recall the "double diffuser" where a slot was not a slot if not visible "when viewed directly from below", and thereby complying to the regulations to the letter.
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Old 23 Feb 2020, 09:34 (Ref:3959356)   #175
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"external ballast" is banned

Oh we just had a REALLY HEAVY exhaust

Not ballast, honest.
Hence not technically illegal, but against the spirit of the rules.
Not the first time a loophole has been exploited, won't be the last time.
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