AF Corse in 2007

[Schumi19]

What will make AF Corse the next year ? Ferrari F430 GT? In did LMS or FIA GT of it? At the 24 Hours of Mans? Thank you.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Schumi19

What will make AF Corse the next year ? Ferrari F430 GT? In did LMS or FIA GT of it? At the 24 Hours of Mans? Thank you.

I think we are having a little problem understaning your question. Could you please rephase your question??

Thank in Advance

[SALEEN S7R]

I think Schumi19 is asking where AF Corse will be racing in 2007, whether in the LMS or FIA GT? And will the team race at Le Mans? Although I could be wrong.

[AU N EGL]

Ok the Maseratti AF Corse
http://www.maseraticorse.com/home.ph...0010&idsitm=CN

Has any team stepped up to race Masseratti out side of Italia ??

[Schumi19]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I think Schumi19 is asking where AF Corse will be racing in 2007, whether in the LMS or FIA GT? And will the team race at Le Mans? Although I could be wrong.

Yes, it is exact.

[SALEEN S7R]

Well in that case I dont know, all any of us here can do is speculate. Well, most of us anyway. Personally though I would think that the most likely result would be to seeing AF Corse in the FIA GT Championship again next year and perhaps with a car or 2 at Le Mans. Going into the LMS would be a backward step, if you look at the quality of GT1 and GT2 teams in the LMS compared to the quality in FIA GT I think you will find that the FIA GT Championship is of a higher calibre.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

if you look at the quality of GT1 and GT2 teams in the LMS compared to the quality in FIA GT I think you will find that the FIA GT Championship is of a higher calibre.

odd then that an LMS team won GT2 at Le Mans last year with another one second

[SALEEN S7R]

Odd also Mr Goodwin that a FIA GT that a team that dominated the LMS next year left the series to join FIA GT for 2006, dont you think? Sure Scuderia Ecosse didnt win Le Mans, but winning 1 race means relatively little. Now, winning a Championship on the other hand is a differnt matter entirely.

Also, you know as well as I that the ACO are more than a little biased when it comes to their selections for the Le Mans 24hrs. I can think of numerous years when the cream of the FIA GT cars missed out on a lot a slot, but some of the slower cars from the series managed to get entries but of course werent 100% competitve.

Are you really trying to say Mr Goodwin that Team LNT are competitve against the likes of Scuderia Ecosse and AF Corse? Just look at the results from this years British GT Championship, Scuderia Ecosse are about to wrap up the title with a line up that is 1 pro driver and 1 pay driver. If they put Kinch/Kirkaldy in the car the series would have been won already.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

odd then that an LMS team won GT2 at Le Mans last year with another one second

Dont you mean this year? Last year the GT2 class at Le Mans was won by AJR/BAM.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Odd also Mr Goodwin that a FIA GT that a team that dominated the LMS next year left the series to join FIA GT for 2006, dont you think? Sure Scuderia Ecosse didnt win Le Mans, but winning 1 race means relatively little. Now, winning a Championship on the other hand is a differnt matter entirely.

Winning Le Mans is far more important than winning the FIA GT championship, in the minds of many, including manufacturers.

Also, you know as well as I that the ACO are more than a little biased when it comes to their selections for the Le Mans 24hrs. I can think of numerous years when the cream of the FIA GT cars missed out on a lot a slot, but some of the slower cars from the series managed to get entries but of course werent 100% competitve.

To be frank, I don't think that a team that doesn't compete in the LMS (ALMS or JLMS) even deserves an entry period. As consideration, those teams that do show support to the ACO series, do deserve priority to those in other series.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Winning Le Mans is far more important than winning the FIA GT championship, in the minds of many, including manufacturers.

Maybe in the US this is the case, but here in Europe in the FIA GT Championship you not only have the works Aston Martin's in the shape of BMS but you also have the factory Maserati squad as well, as well as works Supported Ferrari's and Porsches in GT2.

Winning Le Mans is a great achievement, but winning a Championship is another matter entirely. Le Mans is just 1 race, a Championship is all about consistancy and durability. Plus the FIA GT Championship also has the Spa 24 hours as part of the series and as far as GT teams are concerned the entries at the Spa 24hrs are every bit as good as the entries GT1 and GT2 get at Le Mans. Sure they dont have the factory Corvettes, but they do have the factory Maserati team, something which Le Mans does not. For now at least.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

odd then that an LMS team won GT2 at Le Mans last year with another one second

Nothing odd about the LNT win, slower car than the others but total reliability which is what you need for a Le Mans win. The win the previous year was far more significant as this was a fast competitive car that also won in the ALMS and would have won in FIA GT. The important thing is keeping out of trouble, keeping clear of the gravel at the side of the raod as it gives you punctures and having drivers that watch the mirrors as well as the road ahead. LMS is perfect training with 4 classes and even in 6 hour races pace alone is not enough look at the GT2 winner in 2005 and 6.

Overall, as I have said before, we need more cooperation between the organisers and forget all the stuff about 2 hour sprints, that is not real sportscar racing. Cooperation, promotion and spectator information will build GT racing crowds and that will improve the entries and sponsors. ALMS gets it right more of the time, pity they only have 4 cars in GT1 now.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Maybe in the US this is the case, but here in Europe in the FIA GT Championship you not only have the works Aston Martin's in the shape of BMS but you also have the factory Maserati squad as well, as well as works Supported Ferrari's and Porsches in GT2.

Winning Le Mans is a great achievement, but winning a Championship is another matter entirely. Le Mans is just 1 race, a Championship is all about consistancy and durability. Plus the FIA GT Championship also has the Spa 24 hours as part of the series and as far as GT teams are concerned the entries at the Spa 24hrs are every bit as good as the entries GT1 and GT2 get at Le Mans. Sure they dont have the factory Corvettes, but they do have the factory Maserati team, something which Le Mans does not. For now at least.

It is nice to have an opinion, but at least state it as such. Of course ACO racing doesn't have a factory Maserati team, they aren't eligible. Bringing that up in this argument is laughable at best.

I'm not sure what the significance of works supported entries are in this discussion. FIA GT has them, LMS has them, ALMS has them, LM24 has them.

So the FIA will have what, Maserati, Ferrari, Porsche and Aston supported teams.

LM will have Corvette, Porsche, Aston, Peugeot, Audi, Panoz (Ferrari?)for certain, and Acura looking to join in... who else? Most of these are pure factory entries, not just "supported" like the FIA.

FIA GT is a good series, but if you think any one series anywhere matches the significance of LM, I believe you are mistaken.

[F360]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

So the FIA will have what, Maserati, Ferrari, Porsche and Aston supported teams.

LM will have Corvette, Porsche, Aston, Peugeot, Audi, Panoz (Ferrari?)for certain, and Acura looking to join in... who else?
Most of these are pure factory entries, not just "supported" like the FIA.

But "supported" is all that is allowed in FIA GT, "works" teams are banned.
Plus the LM manufacturers listed include manufacturer prototypes which also have no relevance to FIA GT. Gotta compare like with like.

[SALEEN S7R]

Fogelhund, the Vitaphone Maserati team are the works team for Maserati. Works is another word for "factory" as I am sure you are aware. The Championship also has Works Aston Martin's in the shape of the BMS team. That is fact, not opinion.

With regards to what the FIA will have in terms of manufacturers, I am not comparing the series to the ALMS or the LMS or JLMC as a whole. I am just saying that the quality of GT1 and GT2 entrants is higher than what you will find in the LMS and JLMC and maybe the ALMS too. Sure the ALMS has the works Corvettes and the works Aston Martin's, but anyone remember who beat the works Aston Martin squad at the Spa 24hrs in 2005? And im not talking about a works BMS effort but the proper Prodrive factory team. Oh thats right, it was the MC12's, 1 from Vitaphone and 1 from JMB.

Get the factory Corvette squad over here and the Prodrive Aston Martin team for the Spa 24 hours and they would have a very tough time against the FIA GT Championship regulars, once again the Vitaphone and JMB MC12's showed the Prodrive Aston Martin team that. Its just a shame the MC12's are illegall in their current form to race in ACO sanctioned races. Once again, all I am saying that IMO the quality of GT1 and GT2 entrants found in the FIA GT Championship is the best in the world.

Of course the ALMS and LMS will have more manufacturers, its got double the ammount of spaces for the races! FIA GT is restricted to 36 cars per event plus 2 invitational cars from the country of event, excluding the Spa 24hrs of course where the entry limit is 65. And finally Fogelhund, I personally do beleive that winning the FIA GT Championship is a bigger achievement than a class win at Le Mans 24hrs alone, which is realistically is all that is achievable at Le Mans for a GT1 or GT2 car. Obviously winning the event outright is a bigger achievement than winning a Championship, but for GT class cars it isnt really realistic.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by F360

But "supported" is all that is allowed in FIA GT, "works" teams are banned.
Plus the LM manufacturers listed include manufacturer prototypes which also have no relevance to FIA GT. Gotta compare like with like.

Thats not entirely accurate. The BMS team in the FIA GT Championship is the official representitive for Aston Martin, they get all the new bits first and get support from the factory. They are basically a works team. Hence the name on the entry list. "Aston Martin Racing BMS".

[Graham Goodwin]

My bad on the last year thing but I don't understand your point about a Championship being more important.

Scuderia Ecosse haven't won the championship! they're second in the order in the GT2 teams and tim is currently 3rd in the driver's championship (and can't win it)

LNT meanwhile finished second and third in the Le mans Series title race.

So by even that measure the two are at worst evenly matched

Lets look elsewhere too - Out of the seven European races the team contested (forgetting for a moment the best result by a non ALMS GT2 team in 6 years at Sebring) LNT won three (including Le Mans, and had a second and third place too (only finishing off the podium at Silverstone and the Nurburgring)

For Scuderia Ecosse the score is four wins from ten with a further pair of second places and a trio of thirds with three races where the team scored no podiums at all

That's a reasonably similar performance i'd say.

Now go and ask any GT driver which they'd rather have - A win at Le Mans or an FIA GT Championship win and I'm prepared to bet a reasonable amount of cash that the 24 hour title means WAY more to most of them.

[The Real DMN]

Saleen S7R has it right.

BMS are the works Aston Martin team in all but name (to get around the FIA's rules). Hence they run Astons in British Racing Green like Prodrive (the ALMS works team) and Labre (the LMS works team). These green cars are works cars, the others are privateer cars. I guess both BMS and Labre where chosen by Prodrive and AM as both had worked with Prodrive in the past and had done well at the International level.

The works cars are slightly better than the privateer cars and Aston only made about 11 works cars (I forget the exact number, but it was stated on Radio Le Mans this year) out of the 25 race cars built in total.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

Now go and ask any GT driver which they'd rather have - A win at Le Mans or an FIA GT Championship win and I'm prepared to bet a reasonable amount of cash that the 24 hour title means WAY more to most of them.

I agree, but then ask them what they would rather have. A class win at Le Mans in GT1 or GT2 or to have won the FIA GT Championship. I think most would say that winning the FIA GT Championships GT1 or GT2 class is a bigger achievement than having won the GT1 or GT2 class at Le Mans. However, if you asked them what is better, winning Le Mans outright or the GT1 or GT2 class of the FIA GT Championship I agree, winning Le Mans outright is better.

[Graham Goodwin]

But the realistic choice isn't between winning outright and winning a class - Its between winning a class (GT2) or winning a class (GT2). I think you'll find that the vast majority would choose winning the class in one of the world's biggest races (otherwise why would Scuderia have bothered doing it in the first place?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I agree, but then ask them what they would rather have. A class win at Le Mans in GT1 or GT2 or to have won the FIA GT Championship. I think most would say that winning the FIA GT Championships GT1 or GT2 class is a bigger achievement than having won the GT1 or GT2 class at Le Mans. However, if you asked them what is better, winning Le Mans outright or the GT1 or GT2 class of the FIA GT Championship I agree, winning Le Mans outright is better.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Graham Goodwin

But the realistic choice isn't between winning outright and winning a class - Its between winning a class (GT2) or winning a class (GT2). I think you'll find that the vast majority would choose winning the class in one of the world's biggest races (otherwise why would Scuderia have bothered doing it in the first place?

Why woudnt any sportscar team race at Le Mans? Its a sponsors dream! Anyone with half a brain can work out the potential financial benefits of racing at Le Mans, even if you dont win. Yes you are of course correct in saying that the Le Mans 24hrs is one of the worlds biggest events, however add together the total attendance the FIA GT Championship gets over the course of a year and I would think that the FIA GT Championship gets just as many people to its events overall. After all the Spa 24hrs gets what, 100,000 spectators? Plus every other normal round gets anything from 20,000-60,000.

Scuderia Ecosse, like everyone else wants to enter the Le Mans 24 hours to potentially win their class, however that isnt their only reason for wanting to race there. As I have said before it is a huge sponsorship opportunity and a chance to give something back to long standing sponsors, a VIP weekend at the Le Mans 24hrs courtesy of the team you are sponsoring is a nice perk I think you will agree.

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I would think that the FIA GT Championship gets just as many people to its events overall. After all the Spa 24hrs gets what, 100,000 spectators? Plus every other normal round gets anything from 20,000-60,000..

You have got to be kidding! I can tell you for a fact that (quite apart from Paul Ricard) there has been one recent FIA GT even which - allegedly - had fewer than 100 paying spectators.

[F360]

Originally Posted by The Real DMN

Saleen S7R has it right.

BMS are the works Aston Martin team in all but name (to get around the FIA's rules).

The works cars are slightly better than the privateer cars and Aston only made about 11 works cars (I forget the exact number, but it was stated on Radio Le Mans this year) out of the 25 race cars built in total.

My two penneth - For what its worth !
On the above point, I agree with what you're saying about the "works" issue but......I would venture that maybe BMS need to send the "better" bits back to where they came from and fit the bits that Phoenix have used. The black car (as one of the not-so-slightly-better Astons) has shown how it could and should be run - it's left BMS for dead at the majority of the races this year.
And lets not forget that BMS know how to put together championship winning programmes.

Surely we should try and put aside any arguments about which series/race is best, its largely irrelevant given the differing nature of each type. LNT have patently NOT matched Ecosse in Brit GT's this year - and thats with an Ecosse driver that while much improved by everyones understanding, is not a Mr.Kirkaldy (no disrespect to Mr.Niarchos intended). However, you have to bear in mind the differing factors. Avon tyres for one. "If" for another - what If Ecosse hadn't had the stuck wheel peg at Le Mans ? Who knows, its all conjecture. Safety car timings and punctures for LNT in British GT may have resulted in a few more wins for the Esperante.

We should be grateful that whichever series is someone's favourite, at least now we have some variety with various Ferrari, Panoz, Porsche, BMW etc..
That is until the arrival of the new Porsche next year at least. I for one was bored rigid with the days of the global Porsche challenge.

Its unquestionable IMHO though that a win at Le Mans (class or otherwise) is MUCH more important to the manufacturers. Period.

[Graham Goodwin]

Absolutely fair comment

Its the variety that makes sportscar racing such a buzz for many - long may it continue