Group A Mercedes 190E - The other German car... - Page 2

**GTRMagic** · 2 Jun 2008, 17:19 (Ref:2217972)

Another history of the Ward cars

903cc · 2 Jun 2008, 18:04 (Ref:2217990)

I remember the 190E. Cool car and I still want one.. I remember Phil Ward rolling one on the top of the mountain at Bathurst as well. Not much damage. Cannot remember what year though.

KA · 2 Jun 2008, 18:24 (Ref:2218014)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I didnt think the Miller/McKay 1994 car was the whizzbang DTM chassis... but this article from Mr Miller's site seems to suggest the DTM car was sold into Asia

Looking at the thumbnail pic at the top of the page, the Technophone colours are the same basic livery as the car raced in the US with Ecurie Atlanta.

The reference to it being ex-DTM could still refer to the original Ward cars rather than the later Evo car- as I remember, the pair of Mercs AMG took to Bathurst in 1986 were originally used by them in the DTM

KA · 2 Jun 2008, 18:44 (Ref:2218034)

Something interesting- just dug out the 1986 Bathurst yearbook- the description of the two AMG/Bob Jane cars does describe them as ex-DTM:

'Two cars were brought out, straight after a German championship round, the only concession to local preparation being glistening black paintwork to comply with the local Martins Cigarettes sponsorship deal organised by the Bob Jane Corporation to contribute to the cost of the exercise. Car no 41 had a class win in the French round of the FIA championship and a win in a round of the national championship to its' credit, while no 14, which had been polited by Franz Klammer and Volker Weidler had been the victor twice in Germany'

Now, AFAIK that description seems to fit the white Commodore/Lui sponsored cars used by AMG in the 1986 DTM (I haven't looked up the details of the precise DTM race wins mentioned, but Weidler and Klammer were definitely on AMG's DTM squad- Klammer had previously raced a Commodore-backed Alfa GTV6.

The reference to an 'FIA championship' win in France is interesting though.... if they're talking about a class win at the Nogaro ETCC round, then that was by a Mercedes France-backed car driven by Snobeck and Cudini- so a Snobeck entry, rather than AMG.....

So was there some movement of cars between AMG in Germany and Snobeck in France....?

KA · 2 Jun 2008, 18:57 (Ref:2218048)

Quote:

Originally Posted by 903cc

I remember the 190E. Cool car and I still want one.. I remember Phil Ward rolling one on the top of the mountain at Bathurst as well. Not much damage. Cannot remember what year though.

that was 1988- he went off into the sandtraps at McPhillamy when water from a cooling system overflow pipe got onto the front wheels- the Merc dug in and gently rolled, and Ward spent about the next hour trying to dig it out of the sand...

KA · 2 Jun 2008, 19:13 (Ref:2218059)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KA

The reference to an 'FIA championship' win in France is interesting though.... if they're talking about a class win at the Nogaro ETCC round, then that was by a Mercedes France-backed car driven by Snobeck and Cudini- so a Snobeck entry, rather than AMG.....

So was there some movement of cars between AMG in Germany and Snobeck in France....?

...alternatively now I've had a look at the ETCC results on Frank de Jong's site, and I wonder if the Bathurst book has got their results crossed up- Klammer & Weidler did have a class win at the Nurburgring ETCC round earlier in the season, which as far as I can see was AMG's only ETCC outing of the year.

Just noticed that there was a thread on the Phil Ward cars a couple of years back:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64078

banger_racer · 8 Jun 2008, 14:54 (Ref:2222513)

just found a ex ludwig 93 car on racecarsdirect.com. It seems to suggest its one of the last class 1 cars left in race condition.

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewli...php?view=17535

And this 92 evo 2 version.

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewli...php?view=16280

banger_racer · 8 Jun 2008, 15:14 (Ref:2222523)

CHASSIS N° AMG 2019253 appears to have been stolen.
Its a 92 spec Evo2.
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewli...php?view=16113

driftwood · 8 Jun 2008, 19:52 (Ref:2222883)

yes good old Kolliker has a bad reputation but I didnt think he would stoop this low- not heard of he returned the car to the owner yet

evo 2 DTM is a nice car the later MB DTM cars with sequentail gearbox i think as used in ITC series where fantastic sounding beast
Mr Chatfield had 1 in Formula saloons in the 90`s before it was banned

G.Walker · 9 Jun 2008, 21:10 (Ref:2224157)

Saw two of the Chatfields earlier evo 2 mercs at a formula saloons round at Mallory. He raced the Ex Laffite one and had an ex Ludwig car as a spare in the transporter!. He also purchased an Bert Maylander later version. Like Driftwood commented it sounded mega.

banger_racer · 11 Jun 2008, 13:52 (Ref:2225756)

Found a few pics on this site (below) 3 Dtm cars if you scroll down and even a ice race spec car!

http://www.geocities.com/shvoldum/racing/racing.html

KA · 27 Jun 2008, 17:38 (Ref:2238878)

Just to keep the thread ticking over- the pic quality isn't up to much, but it's one of the rarer 'Group A' Merc appearances.

The Eccles Racing/Swinford Motors Prodsaloon goes another lap down to the Grice Commodore during its' outing at the 86 TT- drivers were Roger Eccles/John Lepp. They qualified 43rd but didn't finish

KA · 2 Jul 2008, 12:39 (Ref:2242185)

Some Merc DTM action- mostly 1991 I think...

Ellen Lohr laying a smoke screen at Wunstorf...

http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/p...isplay/8237976

no smoke screen this time at Zolder, but that front spoiler has taken a hammering...
http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/p...splay/12016070

Ellen pre-race- and no, I have no idea why anyone should be wearing a top hat on the grid....

http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/p...splay/12016082

more Zolder- Lohr and Asch http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/p...splay/12016058

Jorg van Ommen- again at Zolder. I always liked that 'Diebels-Alt' green & gold on the Merc...
http://www.fotocommunity.com/pc/pc/p...splay/12019844

Herbert · 12 Aug 2008, 18:41 (Ref:2267996)

In the DTM the first 190E 2.3 -16 was raced by Leopold Gallina in 1985, which was totally private effort. In 1986 RSM Marko entered cars with engines by AMG for Peter Oberndorfer (who was replaced after a few race with Volker Weidler) and Franz Klammer. Scuderia Kassel first entered a car for Johannes Breuer and later expanded to more cars which were driven irregularly by Kris Nissen, Sepp Haider, Peter Oberndorfer and Jörg van Ommen.

Herbert · 12 Aug 2008, 18:53 (Ref:2268004)

In 1987 Marko entered two cars for van Ommen and Klammer (and later Heiner Weiss). Apart from that there were the private cars of Gallina, Weiler and Weber. In 1988 AMG finally entered the DTM themselves, but the most successful 190-driver was Roland Asch with his private BMK Motorsport run version. New to the Mercedes family were IPS Racing and Snobeck.

**chunterer** · 13 Aug 2008, 12:17 (Ref:2268414)

IPS Racing....

Was this the same outfit that was heavily into prepping Volvo 240's for Swedish, German and ETC racing beforehand by any chance?

Led by Ingmar Persson or someone like that?

KA · 13 Aug 2008, 13:59 (Ref:2268485)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

IPS Racing....

Was this the same outfit that was heavily into prepping Volvo 240's for Swedish, German and ETC racing beforehand by any chance?

Led by Ingmar Persson or someone like that?

I was going to say yes, but saw that you'd already answered the question from the Volvo thread!

Interesting that the first DTM 190 was Gallina's privateer effort, given that the first ETCC cars were the French Snobeck car also in '85. Was any factory support available to these teams, or weren't Mercedes interested in the car until AMG entered the DTM? Snobeck's cars had sponsorship from the French Merc importer didn't they?

As I remember, didn't Mercedes look at rallying the car originally in the early 80's? I'm sure I remember reading something about Walter Rohrl signing for a Mercedes WRC programme that was then abandoned without ever starting a rally (understandable given that it would have probably coincided with the appearance of the Quattro!), leaving him without a regular drive until he joined Rothmans Opel in '82 or thereabouts

Aslak Vind · 15 Aug 2008, 09:04 (Ref:2269486)

There are two Zakspeed Evolution 2, 2.5 ex DTM cars racing in Denmark SSC, will try and find out more about them.

The noise they make at 11.000 RPM is just spinetingling

Jesper OH · 31 Jan 2009, 20:49 (Ref:2383368)

Updating my DTM files at the moment I found an interesting tid-bid of information from early 1987. At that time Jürgen Weiler had taken possession of one of the previous years Scuderia Kassel 190Es, a team which by everyone around the scene was known as an underhand factory effort. Although the team was no more in '87, Weiler still received engines from Mercedes.

BTW hello Aslak - believe we met somewhere on the Danish scene!

Jesper

**chunterer** · 2 Feb 2009, 16:54 (Ref:2386678)

Jesper, timely refresher for this thread.

I can't believe it was August last year that we last had any activity??!! Time is certainly flying!!

Yes, Kassel was a slick operation alright. I had hoped that they'd do the Silverstone TT in 1986, but I don't think they did?

I guess Mercedes may have thought there were already 190's entered by Carlsson and the Belgian lot and didn't want to interfere as Kassel was a DTM team?

Jesper OH · 2 Feb 2009, 21:19 (Ref:2386931)

Chunterer, I would think that the Mercedes situation by late 1986 was becoming a bit confusing as Kassel was apparently a sort of works team, Snobeck had support from the French Mercedes dealers and the Helmut Marko team had some technical support from AMG, although the tuning company was independent from M-B for another few years.

I will try to produce a year-by-year overview of Mercedes drivers and teams in the DTM over the years. Already by year 2 - 1986 - there seems to be a few drivers I can't link to any teams.

Jesper

Jesper OH · 2 Feb 2009, 21:52 (Ref:2386963)

1985

Only one taker privateer Leopold Gallina with an engine by Jörg Hartmann of Hartmann Motor in Stuttgart. Power was described as good but standard brakes and too soft suspension compromised the handling. Driver and car was present at round 4 at Mainz-Finthen on 2nd June, only a month after homologation of the vehichle, but was a non-starter. Three starts followed over the remaining races but all resulted in DNFs. I have never heard of Leopold Gallina except for his DTM starts 1985-1988, so the man is a bit of a mystery as much as this entry, but might be the first Group A 190E to race. I know that Snobeck was already racing in France, but those cars were a bit beyond Group A, so I don’t count them. Finally a link to Hartmann.
http://www.hartmann-motorsport.de/
The letters matches finely with the type of letters I have seen on the ’85 Gallina car.

Jesper

Jesper OH · 2 Feb 2009, 23:24 (Ref:2387013)

1986 – part 1

Marko RSM (Helmut Marko)
#8 for Peter Oberndorfer, Volker Weidler
#9 Franz Klammer
Oberndorfer and Klammer retained for ’86 by Helmut Marko but the old Alfa GTV6s was pensioned off for new 190Es. For round 3 Oberndorfer had a clashing Renault Alpine Euro Cup meeting and defending German F3 Champion Volker Weidler took over the controls ..and won! His victory at Nürburgring was then followed up by another victory at the following race at Avus. Despite missing the two opening rounds of the nine round series, Weidler ended up being the only challenger to eventual champion Kurt Thiim in the Rover.
Weidlers car at round 7 at the Nürburgring “Grosser Preis der Tourenwagen” was described as brand new, which makes sence as the Marko team made their first foray into the ETCC the following day. So possibly three cars at Marko’s disposal for the weekend of 12-13 Juli.
Peter Oberndorfer’s extra curricular racing activities had previously been a problem for Marko, and some good imput on handling by Weidler at his first test session before his debut and subsequent race win, made him an obvious replacement for the rest of the season. Oberndorfer got a drive with the Scuderia Kassel M-B outfit later in the year but his Alpina BMW M3 seat in 1988 was the nearest he ever got to rejuvenate his DTM career, although he continued in various one-make saloon series into this millennium.
Here’s race-by-race results for the Marko team as I can trace them. It seems that car #8 had white bumpers, while #9 had dark (black) bumpers, both in white/red Lui and Commodore 64 livery for the European races, while

1986.03.30 – DTM round 1, Zolder (B)
#8 Peter Oberndorfer, 7th
#9 Franz Klammer, 10th

1986.04.13 – DTM round 2, Hockenheimring (D)
#8 Peter Oberndorfer, 18th/retired after collision with Kurt König-635. 2nd in qualifying
#9 Franz Klammer, DNF

1986.04.27 – DTM round 3, Nürburgring
#8 Volker Weidler, 1st / 3rd in qualifying
#9 Franz Klammer, DNS due to accident in warm-up / 4th in qualifying

1986.05.11 – DTM round 4, Avus
#8 Volker Weidler, 1st / 2nd in qualifying
#9 Franz Klammer, DNF

1986.06.01 – DTM round 5, Mainz-Finthen
#8 Volker Weidler, 4th / 4th in qualifying
#9 Franz Klammer, 5th / pole position

1986.06.08 – DTM round 6, Wunstorf
#8 Volker Weidler, 2nd / 2nd in qualifying / fastest race lap
#9 Franz Klammer, 3rd

1986.07.12 – DTM round 7, Nürburgring
#8 Volker Weidler, 2nd / 6th in qualifying – new chassis
#9 Franz Klammer, 19th / 4th in qualifying, pushed off at the first corner and punctured.

1986.07.13 – ETCC round 8, Nürburgring
#43 Volker Weidler/Franz Klammer, 8th overall, class winner div. 2 by 11 seconds. Dark bumpers.

1986.08.17 – DTM round 8, Zolder
#8 Volker Weidler, 15th / 7th in qualifying
#9 Franz Klammer, 16th

1986.09.21 – DTM round 9, Nürburgring
#8 Volker Weidler, 2nd / 4th in qualifying
#9 Franz Klammer, 7th

*1986.10.05 – Australian Endurance Championship round 4, Bathurt 1000
#41 Denny Hulme/Franz Klammer, 9th overall/2nd in class
#14 Jörg van Ommen/Andrew Miedecke, DNF (accident on lap 1 – Miedecke didn’t drive)

1986.10.19 – Australian Endurance Championship round 5, Calder Park
#14 Jörg van Ommen, 12th overall/5th in class
#41 Denny Hulme, 22nd overall/7th in class

The cars might also have raced at the Australian Grand Prix support race on 25 October, but I have little information of that race, so any contribution would be much appreciated.

* In Australia the class was divided at 2 and 3 litres respectively, moving the Benz into direct competition with Volvo 240 Turbos and Nissan Skyline Turbos.
Hans Heyer and Volker Weidler was entered for car #41 but didn’t appear. From the Bathurst 1986/87 book it says that both cars entered was coming straight from a German meeting (the DTM final obviously). It further tells that #41 had a class win at the French ETCC round (this must be Nogaro on 14 September won by Alain Cudini/Dany Snobeck! This sounds odd as Snobeck was capable of building his own cars). Car #14 is descriped as twice a winner in Germany in the hands of Weidler and Klammer. Since Klammer only won the ETCC round at Nürburgring – in Germany of course – and Weidler at this stage was already twice a winner, it would either suggest that the Bathurst author got it slightly wrong as this car was in fact a three time winner.
A little further on in the book it says, that car #41 was in fact the Nürburgring ETCC class winner!
What’s for sure is that both cars stayed in Australia with Phil Ward campaigning the cars into the early years of Australian 2 litre Super Touring racing in the 1990s.

Jesper

Jesper OH · 2 Feb 2009, 23:43 (Ref:2387022)

1986 – Part 2

Scuderia Kassel
#33 Johannes Breuer, Jörg van Ommen
#64 Kris Nissen, Jörg “Sepp” Haider, Peter Oberndorfer

1986.03.30 – DTM round 1, Zolder (B)
#33 Johannes Breuer, 11th

1986.04.13 – DTM round 2, Hockenheimring (D)
#33 Johannes Breuer, 7th

1986.04.13 – ETCC round 3, Hockenheimring (D)
#? Sepp Haider/Jochen Dauer, DNF

1986.04.27 – DTM round 3, Nürburgring (D)
#33 Johannes Breuer, 22nd

1986.05.11 – DTM round 4, Avus (D)
#33 Johannes Breuer, 2nd

1986.06.01 – DTM round 5, Mainz-Finthen (D)
#64 Kris Nissen, 9th
#33 Johannes Breuer, 12th

1986.06.08 – DTM round 6, Wunstorf (D)
#33 Johannes Breuer, 14th
#64 Sepp Haider, DNF / 6th in qualifying

1986.07.12 – DTM round 7, Nürburgring (D)
#64 Peter Oberndorfer, 9th

1986.08.17 – DTM round 8, Zolder (B)
#64 Peter Oberndorfer, DSQ / 2nd in qualifying
#33 Jörg van Ommen, DNS / pole, crash in qualifying

1986.09.21 – DTM round 9, Nürburgring (D)
#64 Peter Oberndorfer, 3rd / 3rd in qualifying
#33 Jörg van Ommen, 5th

Except for Hockenheimring I haven’t found any more ETCC results. Team dissolved at the end of the year.

Leopold Gallina
#? Leopold Gallina

1986.04.13 – DTM round 2, Hockenheimring (D)
#? Leopold Gallina, DNF

1986.08.17 – DTM round 8, Zolder (B)
#? Leopold Gallina, 10th

1986.09.21 – DTM round 9, Nürburgring (D)
#? Leopold Gallina, 15th

This concludes the DTM 190Es of 1986.

Jesper

Jesper OH · 3 Feb 2009, 10:53 (Ref:2387287)

1987 – Part 1

Marko RSM (Helmut Marko)
#11 Jörg van Ommen
#12 Franz Klammer
White/red livery with Würth as major sponsor for the DTM races

1987.03.22 – WTCC round 1, Monza (I)
#57 Peter Oberndorfer/Franz Klammer, 3rd overall / 1st in class

1987.03.29 – DTM round 1, Hockenheimring (A)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 3rd
#12 Franz Klammer, 21st

1987.04.12 – DTM round 2, Zolder (B)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 4th
#12 Franz Klammer, 6th

1987.04.26 – DTM round 3, Nürburgring (D)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 10th
#12 Franz Klammer, 13th

1987.05.10 – DTM round 4, Avus (D)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 5th
#12 Franz Klammer, 8th

1987.05.31 – DTM round 5, Mainz-Finthen (D)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 6th
#12 Franz Klammer, 21st

1987.06.14 – ETCC round 5, Österreichring (A)
#57 Peter Oberndorfer/Franz Klammer, DNF

1987.06.20-21 – VLN round ?, Nürburgring (D) 24 hour race
#? Peter Oberndorfer/Jörg van Ommen/Otto Rensing, DNF
#? Volker Weidler/Franz Klammer/Kris Nissen, DNF

1987.06.28 – DTM round 6, Norisring (D)
#12 Franz Klammer, 20th
#11 Jörg van Ommen, DNF

1987.07.11 – DTM round 7, Nürburgring (D)
#12 Franz Klammer, 9th
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 23rd / retired

1987.07.12 – WTCC round 4, Nürburgring (D)
#57 Peter Oberndorfer/Franz Klammer, DNF

1987.08.01-02 – WTCC round 5, Spa-Francorchamps (B)
#57 Peter Oberndorfer/Franz Klammer/Peter John, DNF

1987.08.02 – DTM round 8, Wunstorf (D)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, 10th
#12 Franz Klammer, 11th

1987.08.09 – DTM round 9, Diepholz (D)
#11 Jörg van Ommen, DNF
#12 Franz Klammer, DNF

1987.08.16 – WTCC round 6, Brno (CS)
#57 Peter Oberndorfer/Franz Klammer, unknown result

1987.08.23 – DTM round 10, Salzburgring (A)
#12 Franz Klammer, 8th
#11 Jörg van Ommen, DNF

1987.09.06 – WTCC round 7, Silverstone (GB)
#57 Peter Oberndorfer/Franz Klammer, 4th overall / 4th in class

I think Bavarian politician Heiner Weiss was also a Marko driver for ’87 but can’t find any actual confirmation, but here is his results for the year.

1987.03.29 – DTM round 1, Hockenheimring (A)
#? Heiner Weiss, DNF

1987.04.12 – DTM round 2, Zolder (B)
#? Heiner Weiss, 17th

1987.04.26 – DTM round 3, Nürburgring (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, 18th

1987.05.10 – DTM round 4, Avus (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, 11th

1987.05.31 – DTM round 5, Mainz-Finthen (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, 22nd

1987.06.28 – DTM round 6, Norisring (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, DNF

1987.07.12 – DTM round 7, Nürburgring (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, 16th

1987.08.02 – DTM round 8, Wunstorf (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, 21st

1987.08.09 – DTM round 9, Diepholz (D)
#? Heiner Weiss, DNF

1987.08.23 – DTM round 10, Salzburgring (A)
#? Heiner Weiss, DNF

If the assumtion that Weiss was indeed a third Marko DTM driver, it would also mean that the Marko team had 4 cars at their disposal by August, as the Spa 24h and Wunstorf DTM race collided. This makes me speculate that the following three DTM entries over the season was in fact that forth Marko car, since the drivers include apparent Marko returnee Peter Oberndorfer as well as international sports car drivers Stanley Dickens and Costas Los!

1987.06.28 – DTM round 6, Norisring (D)
#? Peter Oberndorfer, DNF

1987.07.12 – DTM round 7, Nürburgring (D)
#? Costas Los, DNF

1987.08.02 – DTM round 8, Wunstorf (D)
#? Stanley Dickens, 20th

Andreas Mark appears for the final round, team unknown

1987.08.23 – DTM round 10, Salzburgring (A)
#? Andreas Mark, 16th

Jesper

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