What's happening to motorsport?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

.......Our competitors were in 70s or early 80s Alfas - 105 GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV - ..... Not really "Prima Donna" behaviour - more "horses for courses".

But would all probably be better off in the ARCA Pre 91 races but hey ho, that wound won't heal.

[flagwaver]

The last few posts have shown what I believe to be wrong with club racing in this country, too many people saying I am not racing with X & Y because of A & B. There will come a time when we will get that fragmented you won't have a race you will go into.

Just look at the MGCC there meetings used to be mainly MG of various classes with the occasional guest series. Now it is mainly guest series with some MG races thrown in.

What is wrong with having more open races with different classes? If you don't think it can work just look at the success of the Northern Saloons & Sports Cars.

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by andy97

But would all probably be better off in the ARCA Pre 91 races but hey ho, that wound won't heal.

And as you well know, Sir - there was no such thing until AROC ran a Series this year....ARCA's attempt to revive it as a "one-off" at Snett attracted 8 Alfas and a Honda CRX.....hailed as a success, I understand

But the would will heal if there is the will for it to be healed. As an AROC Board member, I have been talking to an Arca activist, and we have agreed to a meet in the next few weeks to have a chat. I'm not naive enough to hope that all will be sweetness and light, but have suggested that we should have a swear-box for anyone harking back ten years or more, rather than looking forward

[midgetman]

>>>>>>I think the Series has potential, and anyone who's seen Classic Alfas being pushed to the limit will surely agree..

Unfortunately not many people seem to agree with you. At least they may agree ith you but don't want to push their classic Alfas to the limit.

But to get back on thread, in what way is the BRSCC lacking compared to the 750? What could the BRSCC do for this thread to be titled "BRSCC have turned things round"?

[MMC Andy]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

And as you well know, Sir - there was no such thing until AROC ran a Series this year....ARCA's attempt to revive it as a "one-off" at Snett attracted 8 Alfas and a Honda CRX.....hailed as a success, I understand

But the would will heal if there is the will for it to be healed. As an AROC Board member, I have been talking to an Arca activist, and we have agreed to a meet in the next few weeks to have a chat. I'm not naive enough to hope that all will be sweetness and light, but have suggested that we should have a swear-box for anyone harking back ten years or more, rather than looking forward

Richard, I ran the Honda CRX in the Alfa Pre 91 race, and enjoyed a great race against 9 other 1980's Alfa's. I sponsor the ARCA Driver of the Day award and so was allowed to enter the CRX as I have a connection with the teams.

Your comments however worry me, and for me sum up all that is wrong with grassroots motorsport in this country. There was a 20min race at Snetterton for £200 for pre-91 Alfa's - it shouldn't matter if Club A or Club B are organising it - we do this sport and turn out our cars for the love of motorsport - everyone with a common interest should get behind iniatitives like it & encourage their members to support. I guess more of your members would/could have turned out at Snetterton than intended to at Thruxton. Opportunity missed.

There are too many ego's in grassroots motorsport, which has caused too many fractures in memberships, and ultimately weakens grids (see Alfa's, MX5's, Porsches's).

Time for a massive cull of ill supported series, and re-structure of grassroots circuit racing. Despite the economic envirnoment, there would be 30-40 car grids for every race if taken apart and put back together correctly.

Andy
MMC Motorsport

[MMC Andy]

Originally Posted by midgetman

>>>>>>I think the Series has potential, and anyone who's seen Classic Alfas being pushed to the limit will surely agree..

Unfortunately not many people seem to agree with you. At least they may agree ith you but don't want to push their classic Alfas to the limit.

But to get back on thread, in what way is the BRSCC lacking compared to the 750? What could the BRSCC do for this thread to be titled "BRSCC have turned things round"?

I run in the CSCC, and have done for a few years now - and the reason why the majority of my racing is with them is because of the communication before, communication during & communication after an event. And that's two way communication - which is encouraged. I feel its my club, and that I have a say - I'm not being told what to do.

I ran last year in the BRSCC run Alfa Championship - and I couldn't have had a more different experience. The BRSCC seem to have hidden behind the website, which has incredibly poor functionality, and appear to leave the communication to the individual series - rather than make the motorsport competitor feel an important & valued member of the BRSCC.

And that's the other main difference - I feel like a member of the CSCC, but last year felt like a member of the Alfa Championship, and not the BRSCC which was bearly mentioned in dispatches. They need to get closer to their clients.

Andy

[The SpeCTator]

[


"Time for a massive cull of ill supported series, and re-structure of grassroots circuit racing. Despite the economic envirnoment, there would be 30-40 car grids for every race if taken apart and put back together correctly."

Andy
MMC Motorsport[/QUOTE]

The most sense written in 2 sentences that I have seen for ages.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Just looked at the entries for the Thruxton races.....the one that the AROC racers would have been amalgamated with (pre-93) was dominated by Sierra Cossies and BMW M3s - the oldest car probably being an Opel Ascona. Our competitors were in 70s or early 80s Alfas - 105 GT Junior, Alfasud, Alfetta GTV - can't say I really blame them for not wanting to race in that company....when the post-historics which would arguably have been a better fit only had 8 entries. Not really "Prima Donna" behaviour - more "horses for courses".

Richard I think I have to explain to people something here that you are not being entirely clear about as I have discussed why this happened with Andy Johnson at the track and this morning and the facts appeared that the Alfa boys wanted a double header and the Pre 74 race and GP 1 was only a single header which is why they were put into 93's also when the decision was made apparently there were only 4 Alfa's entered so how on earth could BARC justify a spot for an extra race for just 4 cars???. Now I wanted to run in GP 1 and could have done in the invite class as my car doesn't quite comply as the 5.7 never came out till 85 and no one races a 5 litre 305 Chevy unit so i opted for 93's and was pleasantly rewarded with two good and close races dicing with three E30 BMW's for most of the time. I didn't expect this and like you expected to be lapped by the M3's but this didn't happen and I am sure if your lads had turned up they would have joined us towards the rear of the grid and had some bloody good sport infront of a very large crowd on the hottest day of the year, their loss me thinks as it was a great weekend!

OH and BTW I think personally it was a good call from BARC towards saving they also going down the slippery slope.

Wasnt too shabby a race was it and there was another E30 just in front, chuck in some Alfas we would have had a ball.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

And as you well know, Sir - there was no such thing until AROC ran a Series this year....ARCA's attempt to revive it as a "one-off" at Snett attracted 8 Alfas and a Honda CRX.....hailed as a success, I understand

But the would will heal if there is the will for it to be healed. As an AROC Board member, I have been talking to an Arca activist, and we have agreed to a meet in the next few weeks to have a chat. I'm not naive enough to hope that all will be sweetness and light, but have suggested that we should have a swear-box for anyone harking back ten years or more, rather than looking forward

I have no connection with AROC or ARCA and have no axe to grind (or knowledge of what happened X years ago) but AROC have been out of the racing game for a long while, until last year, whether we are talking about Pre 91, Classic Alfas or contempory whatever, whilst ARCA continued to wave the red flag. I really hope that your attempts to deliver a rapprochement are very succesful because its madness to split the interest of the Alfa racing fraternity between two organisers.

[Lancsbreaker]

Hadn't had the point about the double-header mentioned to me, Al - fair point! Obviously I would never advocate running a race for only four cars - which after the Mallory meet dropped to three because of engine issues....

As I initially said, I was disappointed in the low entry and subsequent cancellation, but can understand why people don't want to run in a series they don't know.

Don't understand "OH and BTW I think personally it was a good call from BARC towards saving they also going down the slippery slope." - I think something got lost in translation

Glad your issues at Thruxton weren't too major...never really trust this electickery...

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by MMC Andy

Your comments however worry me, and for me sum up all that is wrong with grassroots motorsport in this country. There was a 20min race at Snetterton for £200 for pre-91 Alfa's - it shouldn't matter if Club A or Club B are organising it - we do this sport and turn out our cars for the love of motorsport - everyone with a common interest should get behind iniatitives like it & encourage their members to support. I guess more of your members would/could have turned out at Snetterton than intended to at Thruxton. Opportunity missed.


Andy
MMC Motorsport

Andy - I'm struggling to see what we are really disagreeing about. In recent years "classic Alfas" haven't had an Alfa series that they wanted to enter, so for 2012 in response to requests - as I understand it, tho I wasn't at that time involved - and have run in conjunction with CTCRC three successful races, at Silverstone, Brands and Mallory, with entries increasing - until Thruxton for whatever reason.

Why didn't more racers turn out at Snetterton? I don't know - maybe they, like me, hadn't heard about it until after the event. Why don't those who raced at Snett enter in the AROC series - don't know that either. "Opportunity missed" applies equally, I guess......

But I'm sure we agree that two series for essentially compatible cars doesn't make sense, which is why I and others are entering into dialogue to try to resolve this long-running AROC/ARCA. If you can apply any influence to effect a positive outcome?

Anyway, I suspect we may have strayed from "BRSCC" discussion...

With you on your comments re CSCC, of course......one of my fantasies would be CSCC running an Alfa series, rather than say Deutche Marque

[simes43]

The recent HRDC event at Donington was run
by the BRSCC.

The HRDC element was great, while the BRSCC
managed sections were average at best. Namely
signing on was held in a shoebox, a non event
briefing that served no purpose and a totally avoidable
accident that the 750 / MGCC/ BARC would have given
points on the license for was ignored.

As always, there are some wonderful people involved in
the BrSCC who give up their time for the sport. It's a shame
that they get tarnished too.

[MMC Andy]

Richard, I would add my best wishes to that of Andy97 - getting the two Alfa's camps together talking is a great start & I hope it leads to a satisfactory resolution for both - 25-30+ Pre 91 Alfa grids next year would be (to back up your earlier comment) a great sight for racers & spectators alike.

Tell you what - get it resolved, guarantee full grids, and I'll sponsor the series. Can't say fairer than that!

Hope to see you again soon - hopefully at Oulton.

Andy

[alfaracer156]

Originally Posted by MMC Andy

Richard, I would add my best wishes to that of Andy97 - getting the two Alfa's camps together talking is a great start & I hope it leads to a satisfactory resolution for both - 25-30+ Pre 91 Alfa grids next year would be (to back up your earlier comment) a great sight for racers & spectators alike.

Tell you what - get it resolved, guarantee full grids, and I'll sponsor the series. Can't say fairer than that!

Hope to see you again soon - hopefully at Oulton.

Andy

If you don't sponser the series you can sponser my Alfa? Mike

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by alfaracer156

If you don't sponser the series you can sponser my Alfa? Mike

Oi! I saw him first! In my rear mirrors in a 33 at Cadwell, IIRC

Tho I think "guarantee full grids" could be a big ask. Going in with positive attitude, tho - Clive and I have been talking amicably, at least........I may well pray your offer in aid, Andy, to help ease the negotiations, if we get that far!

[R59]

How times have changed. 20 odd years back, the Chris Knott Alfa's would have filled two grids on a race day, paired with the Italian Intermarque series, which would also have a grid-full on it's own merit (plus the interlopers from the Alfas doing an extra race). The Slick 50 Road Saloons filled one big grid, the Toyo Tyres Super Road Saloons often presented a full Class C (1400-1800cc) grid, plus a fairly full "A,B & D" grid. In fact back then I can't remember a series, other than those ruddy Beetles that awful woman Foulston foisted on the BRSCC which didn't put on a grid of at least 16-20 cars.
John Nicol was at the helm of the BRSCC, Nicola was the bringer of many stupid ideas (including the Beetle Cup). After some rule meddling and goalpost moving, the Super Road Saloons dwindled to a half-a-dozen car grid by the end of the 1990's and joined the BARC Mod-Prods for a swan-song. Slick50's went the same way and were swallowed into Eurosaloons....
Alfa's were still alive, but the Intermarque had pretty well died so became the EuroSaloons. Is that still going? Oh yes...The bucket shop for all failed championships under a BRSCC banner - chuck 'em in there and create another class.
There was the Eurocar fiasco where the BRSCC chucked a load of money the wrong way. Sonny Howard did all right out of it! And the VSR/Silhouettes too. Another mess.
The last thing I had to do with them was when they killed off the SCSA/ASCAR at the end of 2007 - that made me more bitter than a lemon with salt on!
It's never "their fault", but they fiddle with the rules and alienate their members, is it any wonder people have been walking away from them. I look today at their championship list. If you take out the Avon Tyres GT stuff because they don't run it, they just hold the permit and take the glory, it doesn't leave them with much. FFord again is only a permit job so they can't really screw that up. If Caterham decided to run their own show, it wouldn't leave the BRSCC with much at all! Poor ol' show for what was once the best club.

[Al Weyman]

wow why don't you tell it like it is Rob I think the whole thing very well outlined by you is just the general state of a failing sport that has simply became too expensive.

[chezza]

Depends how you work it though...we picked up the VSRs/Silhouettes and they became a class in our sports and saloons. We also tweeks the regs to add in a second class a "hot rod" spec class and it is thriving...all it took was a little thought and work with the drivers.

[vjay48]

While a club can consider a 6-7 car championship like junior Fiesta is a viable finanacial consideration,its vision and credibilty is tainted. Junior Fiesta was started as a business by Kevin Shortis /Daniels Motorsport,why should BRSCC members subsidise it, if it was wanted it would be filling grids. This is not the first time this has happened,the organisers can walk when it fails,a few people get left with a car that no longers has championship home, club funds are further depleted and entry fees/membership fees go up again and grids go down. The RACMSA should investigate the funding of new ventures,after BE doesnt let you on the grid until you wonga up!!!

[chezza]

The rules for registering championships next year has changed significantly in that if you are starting from scratch (having not run as a series in the past) then you have to put a bond down with the HCA that you will only get back if you fulfill the championship criteria for three years.

However I don't think this kind of thing will stop new series sprouting up, although they do have to be registered with the MSA now.

[Minicross424]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

wow why don't you tell it like it is Rob I think the whole thing very well outlined by you is just the general state of a failing sport that has simply became too expensive.

With out getting in to any debate that is going on here, I have to agree with the above statement regarding a sport that is becomming too expensive.
Now I am not saying that any club is at fault here or being greedy but it has got to the point where the man off the street (Not tree lined ones with posh postcodes) can go circuit racing.
I come from a short oval back ground, first Autograss, then Spedeworth stadiums before going into Rallycross (Minicross).
I brought my Minicross car for £1600, done a bit to it to smart it up and entered meetings for £80 a time.
I swapped to full circuit racing due to being cheesed off with the damage that came with Rallycross and despite a jump in entry fees (about £120) could still go and have some fun on a Saturday of Sunday.
Now I find myself paying a Min of £235 a meeting and my next one is £335 for a Saturday meeting at Brands Hatch.
Add into that fuel costs (Thanks Mr Cameron), tyres and upkeep etc etc....
So this season is to be my last full season for some time.
I hope to do the odd rounds and if I can afford it, will carry on.
If not I will return to Autograss where the man off the street can still go racing on a weekend for less that his or hers weeks wages.
I assure you I am far from the only one who feels like this and as the numbers slowly drop off how many clubs will keep there heads above water?

[Al Weyman]

Yep you are right I am afraid, I have just been sitting here working out if I can do the next meeting I want to do and have worked it out just on fuels in race and tow vehicles and entry fees I am almost into £700, its just getting out of my range now.

[tim dodwell]

The real Timmy here, Al!!
Gosh that is terrible, £700 to do a meeting. Maybe it is time to consider driving to your races again - as you sometimes did in road saloons.
Cadwell will cost me half that in fuel and entry fees.
Maybe it is time to bring back the road saloons - except that some blighters would soon insist on trailers again when we got back up to FOUR full races (as we did in the good old days - two Supers and two Slick 50), thus chasing away the majority and finishing off the series.
Factor in the cost of tow cars etc, and it was even better value.
Oh and before you mention it, yes, sometimes there can be problems getting the car home - especially when they lace the fuel with ethanol.

[Al Weyman]

I think with modern insurance criteria and forthcoming regulations on modifying road going vehicles sadly Tim the days of people driving race cars to races and home again are well and truely numbered. The meeting weekend I was referring to was three races and a total of 85 minutes of track time just too much IMHO. That will put paid to 100 litres of fuel or £140 for starters. Then there is fuel in the Dayvan getting there and back even on Autogas that'll be £70 so up to £210 add £500 entry and we are into £710 and thats before any consumables or wear and tear on the race car. Even if I only did the Cadwell meeting it would be £300 entry, £120 fuel in Dayvan and £70 fuel in race car so that would add up to best part of £500 quid. Its became a rich mans sport again sadly. I personally think the only way racing is going to survive is if clubs started putting some of the takings back to the guys putting on the show eiher by far lower (and I mean far lower) entry fees or start money not prize money as the same old guys would always get that.

[Tim Falce]

There's a couple of other clubs that seem to be going the same way, they forget why they are there and who actually pays them and just treat the racers as a bit of a necessary inconvenience.

BTW, I'm Tim...........and so is my wife.