Safety car shambles

[Trevor]

You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper peckstar, you are losing whatever respect people had for you.

Just in case you weren't born when this happened:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiYJR2ojne0

[peckstar]

good job by the flaggie in that incidident. double yellows staright away and the flag i missed when explaining safety. Red flag, another safety measure to keep marshalls and firies safe

marshalls injured in that incident by speeding cars. NIL

gee a ten year old accident is the best you can come up with. fortunatly Safety has changed in that time and that incident becomes less likely to occur.

everyone just plays the man, no facts at all to support your cases.

[jonevans]

Surely the objective of a 'Safety' Car is to neutralise the field as quickly as possible to allow appropriate personnel to attend the accident scene as quickly as they can. The current policy means drivers are racing rivals both on the track and in the pits for position which is unacceptable even given the double waved yellows and S/C boards around the track.

As OH&S and single team pit booms virtually prevent closing the pits to form up behind the S/C and then pit en masse, I'd prefer the S/C be scrambled as soon as possible to pick up the first car it encounters. Once stops have been done then correct the order by waving around cars until the leader is immediately behind. I know it is hard at longer venues like Bathurst (two S/Cs?) and someone's race might be compromised by being hung behind the S/C but, tough, I'd rather that than waiting an eternity to safely get to someone in need to aid.

Laughable to hear drivers saying in the Barbagallo press conference that they passed the stationary S/C up to three times with its green (overtake) light on. It isn't rocket science and there has to be a permanent qualifed (ex driver?) S/C pilot at every round.

[Trevor]

The 'pilot' is only as good as the information given to them, a very good mate of mine has driven the Safety Car in recent times and the information can be a little lacking at times.

They don't need to be an ex-race car driver, they only do 80km/h, the problem is not the car or the driver, the problem is the person in race control not knowing what they are doing or what is going on.



Peckstar, you really are loosing the plot, I have decided to ignore your comments from now on as you really don't deserve a response.

[peckstar]

That would be good Trev, as you really are bringing nothing to the discusion

jon evans, what you are saying is almost correct except that SC's are not always about accident scenes, sometimes (most of the time) they are just for a broken down car or a car parked in a position thats needs clearing or maybe there is some debris on a track. In those cases does it matter if it takes a a lap or two to get appropriate personnel to the sticken car or debris.

in V8 races both types of SC occur, it can happen immediatly or wait to pick up the winner generally because in V8's very few incidents are life threatning (like on the weekend or at PI) the SC can wait to pick up the leader and the cars can continue to cirulate at speed, sometimes though this is not the case and drivers need to be slowed immeadiatly or the race even stopped

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

good job by the flaggie in that incidident. double yellows staright away and the flag i missed when explaining safety. Red flag, another safety measure to keep marshalls and firies safe

marshalls injured in that incident by speeding cars. NIL

gee a ten year old accident is the best you can come up with. fortunatly Safety has changed in that time and that incident becomes less likely to occur.

everyone just plays the man, no facts at all to support your cases.

Your forgetting one key fact. That incident happened at the start of the race, where all the chase cars were right on top of it. Had that happened under full green flag conditions, it would have been a totally different outcome. The fact that its happened, proves the point, anything can happen.

I'll help you out and take a wheelbarrow load of dirt for ya

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by peckstar

generally because in V8's very few incidents are life threatning (like on the weekend or at PI)

sorry I can't let this go, getting hit in the B pillar, side on is life threatening, it just so happens in this circumstance no-one was injured thankfully, but again you are showing your complete ignorance of vehicle dynamics. People have died and have been injured in crashes not dis-similar to the Kelly one in W.A. and in a V8 Supercar.

[Axeman444]

Originally Posted by peckstar

jon evans, what you are saying is almost correct except that SC's are not always about accident scenes, sometimes (most of the time) they are just for a broken down car or a car parked in a position thats needs clearing or maybe there is some debris on a track. In those cases does it matter if it takes a a lap or two to get appropriate personnel to the sticken car or debris.

in V8 races both types of SC occur, it can happen immediatly or wait to pick up the winner generally because in V8's very few incidents are life threatning (like on the weekend or at PI) the SC can wait to pick up the leader and the cars can continue to cirulate at speed, sometimes though this is not the case and drivers need to be slowed immeadiatly or the race even stopped

problem is peckstar, how do you know if it is life threatening? who's to say a car has had a gentle rub of some description and something hasn't come lose in the car and done some damage to the occupant? you can't tell until you either hear it on the radio (however it is my understanding flaggies and safety crew have no access to this?), the driver gets out, or the safety guys get there. Also consider a flammable liquid leak that is not noticable, and only waiting for a spark...??

i think the best way to deal with this is what nascar have done, throw the yellows and the previous lap's position is what is taken into account, stops the speeding drivers. If it comes to the fact that pit lanes around the country need to be upgraded to be able to cope with the then influx of cars all at once, then i'm sure the black wiggle would be happy with that!

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

People have died and have been injured in crashes not dis-similar to the Kelly one in W.A. and in a V8 Supercar.

a certain accident at Bathurst a couple of years ago springs to mind...

[Trevor]

I can also recall an incident at NZ where Baird lost the complete rear of the car with a impact with the fence, I can recall Brad Jones upside down and Paul Radisich running to help him in Barbagello, I can recall Holdworth being hospitalised as a result of a crash at Winton very recently, but Peckstar knows best, his is Tony's Oracle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66kf-smrStw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDdYahcuRXc

[NewsStalker]

I would have thought this is more to pickstars liking - more recent and no one gets injured (well no marshalls, so it's all OK for him)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovwa...eature=related

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt_X...eature=related

So pickstar - how bad does a crash have to be before it 'isn't OK for you'?

[peckstar]

Im not sure why you guys are posting you tube videos and exactly what is has to do with this topic.

Its interesting to note that in 3 of those 4 incidents red flags aoccurred. and in the otehr incidents the cars were slow after the incident (imagine that drivers have eyes and brains)

Its also inetresting to note that none of them happened under a safety car

and as you pointed out NS no marshalls were injured

stealthy while your point was absoliutly nothing to do with mine, I think big trev answered it for you with his baird incident (no fire though)

Axeman, thank good ness your here, someone who wants to discuss the topic ratehre than just bad mouth peopel and argue for the sake of arguing. a also like that you have offered ideas, i cant argue with them because they are all good ideas (although i had mentioned one of them previously.) I know in NASCAR the driver put down his window net to say he is ok,(not possibly in our series)

I think the reason we knew that todd kelly was not facing any life threatning injuries was because he was actually driving the car of the track afetr the incident with holdworth (who was also driving off the track). the incident was also nothing like the one at bathurst (or the weel one) other side of the car and at less than half the speed more likely about a quarter and not ona blind corner, plus we have increased safety in the cars now from thsoe incidents

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

stealthy while your point was absoliutly nothing to do with mine, I think big trev answered it for you with his baird incident (no fire though)

Your comment said 'no marshals hurt and no speeding cars'

The point was, of course there wasn't, the video your referring to was the start of the race, when every car was grouped together, and the chase cars were right behind them.

If the same type of rear impact on stationary car happened under full green, the fire marshals wouldn't have got there as quickly, and they would have had to wait even longer to get to the actual track, because yellow means nothing in this category. THAT is why my point has something to do with your post (but alas, like every other post in this thread, i'm sure you were well aware of the point i was making, but like it when people explain themselves to you)

[Oldtony]

Don't want to get involved in the judgement of what is a dangerous crash, and what isn't, but it strikes me that one of the main problems is the whole safety car thing has become devalued. Drivers have become so used to an SC being called for fairly minor reasons that they tend to now look upon the SC Board as an opportunity or disadvantage in terms of their race position rather than a genuine message to be cautious. Sort of "cry wollf".
I'm inclined to go for a situation where there is an enforced speed limit for the whole circuit when the SC board goes out. The SC would then go out and pick up the next car through, with cars being waved through on safe sections until the leader was behind the SC. Double yellows continue to wave before sites where marshals are working, single waved at all other points.
V8 control would rapidly find that calling an SC for frivolous reasons was not acceptable for teams and fans, and drivers would know that if there is an SC Board out it is for a genuine reason

[bestfit]

Toddler Pukekohe 2005 anyone?

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Don't want to get involved in the judgement of what is a dangerous crash, and what isn't, but it strikes me that one of the main problems is the whole safety car thing has become devalued. Drivers have become so used to an SC being called for fairly minor reasons that they tend to now look upon the SC Board as an opportunity or disadvantage in terms of their race position rather than a genuine message to be cautious.

damn good point

Originally Posted by bestfit

Toddler Pukekohe 2005 anyone?

another good point /video AND under SC boards and waved yellows - go figure, but it is safe out there - LOL @ peckstar

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Your comment said 'no marshals hurt and no speeding cars'

The point was, of course there wasn't, the video your referring to was the start of the race, when every car was grouped together, and the chase cars were right behind them.

If the same type of rear impact on stationary car happened under full green, the fire marshals wouldn't have got there as quickly, and they would have had to wait even longer to get to the actual track, because yellow means nothing in this category. THAT is why my point has something to do with your post (but alas, like every other post in this thread, i'm sure you were well aware of the point i was making, but like it when people explain themselves to you)

No it didnt, part of my comment said that, my comment was that the red flag was called straight away. just as it was when Baird crashed at NZ (no safety vehicles following then)

but at anypoint we referring to cars on fire, i said there had been no accident related fires for ages, and so far the best we can come up with is year 2000, nearly ten years ago, we have improved safety for the cars in fires, need proof, Bathurst 2006 Perkins and Skaife, whiel not stationary ther was significant speed difefrence, no fire.

and there we are referring to the need to get people on the track quickly in the case of fires, thats why we have red flags so that can happen

its part of the heiarchy of controls we have built into our series to insure safety.

Like your idea old tony. im not necessarily agreeing with your opinion about SC use though,(although i agree in the past it has been a problem, less so this year)

edit the todd incident is bad, he was dealt with after that incident and drivers wer reminded of the rules. Still i dont believe any marshalls were injured and even close to ebing injured ( and its now 5 years/seasons ago)

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

I'm inclined to go for a situation where there is an enforced speed limit for the whole circuit when the SC board goes out.

Now this is the very simple solution and one that can be applied at every level.
Easy to police-self policeing in fact. Lap time and data would tell the tale-an improved position --mmm.

FWIW it would also improve the quality of the racing--- by keeping the reward in what was gained and not having the safety car ruin a hard earned lead.

[johnh875]

peckstar what point are you trying to make with all this? Just because an accident or incident has not happened does not mean it can not or will not, or precautions should not be taken to avoid it.

Given that the V8Supercar Ops Manual clearly states that cars should be driven "at reduced speed" when the SC boards are out, it is hard to fathom why nobody is ever penalised for disregarding this rule. Or are you saying they should not enforce their own rules?

You have previously referred to cars/teams knowing what is going on and keeping the driver informed - so why were cars shooting down the main straight at PI at full chat when they knew the SC was on the track? Even if the SC was not stationary, a ~200km/h closing speed over a blind crest is a pretty clear sign that these guys need a bit of help with track/SC safety procedures.

[peckstar]

John

all i am trying to say is that the integrity of the race is relevant to the deployment of the safety car.

I am arguing that the system we currently have works much better the the blanket closing of the pits no matter what

[Trevor]

Becasue Peckstar knows, that is why

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by bestfit

Toddler Pukekohe 2005 anyone?

Listen to Toddler - "We knew the boards were out but Garth and all the guys in front were pressing on and if you slow down, you just lose pit position... the whole field was pressing on..."

I think I can safely say that this video demonstrates that V8SC drivers have no respect for the safety of anyone except themselves. This ridiculous notion of having pit stops during the race has led to unquestionably unsafe practices among the drivers when the Safety Car boards come out to still "press on" to to get to the front straight and past the pits to maintain track position.

Get rid of pit stops and you could almost guarantee this problem would cease to exist.

[Rachel Richards]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

V8 control would rapidly find that calling an SC for frivolous reasons was not acceptable for teams and fans, and drivers would know that if there is an SC Board out it is for a genuine reason

Like the TV needing a commercial break, or maybe even a flag on the track, which, which some say allowed a Favorite son to benefit.....

And for those of you that don't think Timmy has favorites, you should hear the comments made in Race Control, any given weekend !

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Chatters

Get rid of pit stops and you could almost guarantee this problem would cease to exist.

Stop making sense and get back to work...

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Rachel Richards

Like the TV needing a commercial break, or maybe even a flag on the track, which, which some say allowed a Favorite son to benefit.....

And for those of you that don't think Timmy has favorites, you should hear the comments made in Race Control, any given weekend !

Stop making sense and get back to work...

[peckstar]

im just wondring chatters (and Deeks) if that means you want a shorter race?

should we also cancel bathurst that has pit stops