Combe GT Race = Shambles

[Dan Friel]

I'd like to see the number of appeals that have been put in! Surely they got it wrong...

Just how come the Porsche should have been a lap down after the restart, why wasn't it let past the safety car??

[Smokey 6 litre]

i havent seen this or heard anything, better go check pistonheads.

[Graham Goodwin]

It was VERY confusing - I was in the commentary tower for the race and the scenes in the timing booth were a sight to see.

[Steve Wood]

A similar thing happened at the Pembrey Britcar race a few weeks ago, and I'm thinking hard to find similarities and generic reasons.

In both cases, the safety car failed to pick-up the leader immediately; in both cases, the lap time under the safety car was less than the pit-stop time by any car pitting during the caution; in both cases, the safety car eventually picked-up not the leader, but a significant well-placed competitor whose race was subsequently ruined; and, in both cases, there seemed to be confusion amongst those in control.

I may be talking rubbish, but where the lap time is shorter than the general pit-stop time, as it was at Combe and Pembrey, the leader can pit duting the SC period, and, whilst the train passes the start line, no lap is added to the current race, since the leader is still stationary. The second-place car, whilst now on the same lap, is still second, though he is the leading car actually on the track.

Rubbish ? Ill-informed ? Irrelevant ?

[scorch]

I see in this country still have difficulty in useing a safety car, just imagine the chaos if we were to run three cars as they did at Lemans this year ...

[jase]

Scorch, thankfully we don't have a circuit long enough for that to happen.

It was a matter of cicumstances that I doubt would rise again (but I'm not saying won't). The main thing is that Graeme Mundy is OK after his shunt.

[Graham Goodwin]

Hear, Hear - Saw Graeme and the remains of #23 afterwards that must have been some impact, Chassis tubes broken clean in half at the welds!

A real shame for Graeme he'd raced fantastically well up to that point.

[Simon S]

Originally posted by Steve Wood
A similar thing happened at the Pembrey Britcar race a few weeks ago, and I'm thinking hard to find similarities and generic reasons.

In both cases, the safety car failed to pick-up the leader immediately; in both cases, the lap time under the safety car was less than the pit-stop time by any car pitting during the caution; in both cases, the safety car eventually picked-up not the leader, but a significant well-placed competitor whose race was subsequently ruined; and, in both cases, there seemed to be confusion amongst those in control.

I may be talking rubbish, but where the lap time is shorter than the general pit-stop time, as it was at Combe and Pembrey, the leader can pit duting the SC period, and, whilst the train passes the start line, no lap is added to the current race, since the leader is still stationary. The second-place car, whilst now on the same lap, is still second, though he is the leading car actually on the track.

Rubbish ? Ill-informed ? Irrelevant ?

?

I may be being thick here but if the leader pit's from behind the saftly car, the man in 2nd place is now the leader, when the (as was) leader exits the pits, he must join at the back of the train, (and loose however many laps he was in the pits for).

Now, that may appear harsh, but its the same of the SC was not out, except the time in the pits would equate to more laps on track, and it's the same for everybody.

as I remeber it from Pembery:

Pace car came out on lap 36
Leader pitted on the end of that lap (ie. start on 37)
second place man pitted on the next lap (as I did from 3rd)
by lap 39 car 5 (Allen) was now at the front of the pack behind the SC
at this point, only cars 5,2 & 7 were on the lead lap.

What was the problem?

[Piglet]

Simon, I think the point is that apparently the leader didn't lose a lap, he caught the tail of the safety car before it came round again. Somehow the timing got itself in a knot and resulted in the confused result. I don't think anyone is very sure how it happened and whether it's just a quirk of the situation or if someone or something made a mistake.

[Steve Wood]

Scuffers, I watched the whole thing from the confusion of the commentary box, and my notes show the following :-

You pitted on lap 31, from 4th place. The 63 Porsche, then lying 3rd, pitted on the same lap. You had quite a long stop, checking around the car yourself, and it was quite a while before John Clonis appeared to take over.

The leading #2 Mantis pitted on lap 32, leaving Allen in the lead.

Clonis retired the Lotus on lap 47.

With 20 minutes to go, which I estimate to be around lap 55, the safety car came out just as Allen passed the pit exit, ie, it missed him by a milli-second.

Allen dived in the pits at the end of that lap, and changed a front left, rejoining at the back of the train when it passed again, thus Allen had spent a laps-worth of time in the pits. At this point, the MG was behind the pace car, and the Marcos somewhere in the middle of the pack, and it was some time in the next 10 minutes when the Marcos finally got to the front of the train.

As my venerable 16-year old son said yesterday, safety cars don't work in multi-class endurance races.

I'm not sure the timing got itself in a knot - it's automatic - but I think the interpretation of the timing screen by various officials is dubious. At Pembrey, such experienced people as the Clerk of the Course, the commentator, and your esteemed Britcar Press Officer had a different spin on the situation.

[Piglet]

Just realised my post is not clear that I was referring to Combe not to Pembrey - never been there, it wasn't me!!

[Simon S]

Steve,

I was assuming you were looking at the Saturday race?

On Sundays,

I did not pit until lap 43 (the 63 Porsche pitted the lap before) so that when I came in I was actually 3rd just for that lap)

the leader (car 2) pitted on lap 45 with 2nd (car 5) only 4.5 sec's behind.

On lap 47, car 2 was in second 1 lap down.

John retired (expired) on lap 50

then the fun started...

Lap 63/64, the pace car came out, just as the leader had crossed the line, and failed to pick up the leader.

Note that the leader (car 5) was the only car on the lead lap at this point.

He then pitted before catching up the train, thus even though he 'lost' a lap in the pits, he was still the leader.

If you go though the lap chart, it's right, the only issue is the deployment of the pace car and it's in-ability to pick up either the leader or the second placed car.

you could argue that car 5 gained an advantage by pitting when he did, and only loosing 1 lap, whereas without the SC he would have lost almost 2, but the same would have happend without the SC (using Yellow and Black quartered).

[Dan Friel]

Perhaps pit stops should be banned in safety car periods??

[jase]

British GT's have a 15 minute window in which driver changes can be made, and as the time behind a Safety Car count, you can't shut the pit lane.

[Piglet]

You could shut the pit lane but then you'd have to have a mechanism for extending the window and a way of clearly communicating that to all of the teams (including where teams don't all have timing monitors on the pit wall). It feels to me that this also takes away the challenge of endurance racing and the ability of a team to run a strategy that takes advantage of a safety car period.

[Steve Wood]

The answer, in my view, is more accurate and effective safety car deployment, and this is critical when the caution period coincides with a potential pit-stop window, enforced or otherwise, and even more critical when the lap time under caution conditions is potentially less than any reasonable pit-stop would take. I hope that these two similar incidences will make officials review the procedure.

[Muppet]

As far as I can tell, the problem arose because the race was red flagged and MST had to produce a new grid sheet. This is highly unusual for British GTs (the only other time in "living" memory was Oulton last year).

If I was a team manager then as soon as the Safety Car trundled out of the Pit Lane then I would have called my car(s) in immediately for the driver changes. At Combe, everyone chose to come in on different laps behind the Safety Car which probably added to the confusion.

[stuartscott]

Does anyone remember where the the Golf was during the safety car laps in part 1 as we pitted last I think. Any feedback would be very much appreciated.

[PTs Bro]

Off the thread slightly....How the hell do you get that Golf to go so quickly?

[Graham Goodwin]

Stuart you were definitely the last to pit - by some distance - you were lying in the top three during the melee I think

[Les]

heck of a car that Golf isn't it?
Looking at the lap charts you were leading gtc class and 6th overall (if I understand this right!)

[stuartscott]

We don't want to say too much about the Golf but we are developing every aspect of the car. We have 300bhp to play with and will take it as far as we can to win our class in the British GT's. What the time keepers will think of that heaven knows!!It was a shame we didn't get a result at Combe for whatever reason but we will be back and stronger.

[james tucker]

the allen car at pembury was missed by the pace car....
the pace car does 2 minute laps..allens car does 1 minute laps, therefore allen made a lap on the other teams by coming out infront of the pace car and by going round the circuit infront of the pace car was a lap up....and as at castle the pace car did not let all the cars by... there the clerk of the day buggered the race....

[james tucker]

les....F1 stopped the turbo in 1600cc cars because they were producing 1300bhp when?....the wheel has not been reinvented...a shopping car is not a GT...and no it would not be allowed at LeMans...its place is with cars that can go to the Ring...and one day Stuart will see that his high breed machine has had no more than a very expensive journey
for very little glory...a great waste in my oppinion as the car could take on the Germans at the Ring, but the team is being used to fill a grid instead of leading one...all the best to the team...sportingly james

[james tucker]

the WILLHIRE HAD 6 INCIDENTS IN WHICH THE PACE CAR WAS USED AND 3 STARTS? AND EVERY TIME THERE WERE NO PROBLEMS..
LESSONS ARE AVAILALBE FROM..........BRSCC
SPORTINGLY
JAMES