gt1 and gtp

frimoto cremasy · 7 Feb 2004, 17:35 (Ref:866458)

what is the diffrence between gt1 and gtp

ascarracinguk · 7 Feb 2004, 18:05 (Ref:866475)

gtp is based on a prototype and doesnt need road going versions....gt1 needs at least 25 road going versions of the car.

**PascaLM** · 7 Feb 2004, 19:40 (Ref:866529)

You should say "was based" ; these cars don't race in championships anymore, unfortunetely.

Cadete · 7 Feb 2004, 19:54 (Ref:866540)

first there was GT1 when you had to have 25, i think, road going cars. but after some years they could do more and more changes and only needed to buy one or two (not sure) road cars. the cars were so different than all normal road going cars that they were indeed prototypes, take a look at a Toyota GT-One and you will see that. so the people that make the decidions turned GT1 into GTP, a class with no pretention to be based on road going cars.

JAG · 7 Feb 2004, 20:22 (Ref:866560)

I think you only needed one road car for GT1 from the go. The main requirement, for FIA GT, was full road type approval which was very costly.

The Lister Storm GTL and TVR Speed 12 did not get this full approval.

Le Mans required a lesser type approval level.

Chevyguy · 7 Feb 2004, 23:10 (Ref:866700)

I'm with JAG on that. Up until '02, you only needed one road car to enter any class. Then Porsche cried to the ACO about the BMW V8, causing the program to stop, and the Saleen S7R to be taken out of contention. Many blame Porsche's GT1 as the nail in the coffin for the GT1 class, but Toyota would have taken that blame if they won Le Mans. Toyota however gets credited as the killer of GTP/Group C in the early '90s. This is how the big factories affect sportscar racing, yet still only represent a small part of the grid. But I'm not teliing anybody anything they don't already know.

alfasud · 8 Feb 2004, 01:06 (Ref:866743)

Wasn't the BMW V8 (M3 GTR) in ACO GT? Nothing to do with GTP and GT1? Or did even ACO GT class require only one road car in the old days? But yes, the main difference between GTP and GT1, was that GT1 were meant to be road going cars.... or at least cars with a road going version.

**PascaLM** · 8 Feb 2004, 09:17 (Ref:866886)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chevyguy
...Toyota however gets credited as the killer of GTP/Group C in the early '90s. This is how the big factories affect sportscar racing, yet still only represent a small part of the grid...

I'm not sure Toyota is the only responsible of the Gr.C end.
Some say that Peugeot had its part of responsability with a certain Jean Todt.

racer69 · 8 Feb 2004, 09:56 (Ref:866905)

From memory, you needed only 1 road going car for GT1. For GT2 (now GTS), 25 road-going cars are required, in LM-GT/N-GT, 75 road-going cars are required.

With regards to Group C dieing, it was all Bernie and Max, the manufacturers were the innocent parties in that.

**Aysedasi** · 8 Feb 2004, 13:48 (Ref:867088)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chevyguy
Toyota however gets credited as the killer of GTP/Group C in the early '90s.

Why?

For my money (and bear in mind its only my opinion), if anyone manufacturer killed Group C it was Peugeot. And Peugeot were only able to do it because Bernie Ecclestone and Jean-Marie Balestre allowed them to.....

**Aysedasi** · 8 Feb 2004, 13:49 (Ref:867090)

Sorry racer69, I didn't read your post before I posted. We clearly agree.

pirenzo · 8 Feb 2004, 14:34 (Ref:867129)

I blame Renault

Splatz the Cow · 9 Feb 2004, 07:58 (Ref:867837)

In my opinion, the 1996 BPR Lotus Type 114 (otherwise known as Eprit V8) was the first car to really stretch the rules of GT racing. What a beautiful car it was and with another year and more development, could have become a classic like the Porsche 911.

In its defence, it looked like, sounded and performed like a Lotus; awesome engine note, small powerful engine, light weight, unreliable, and potential to burst into flames (Mike Hezemans, Nurburgring).

But who bought this 580Hp 900Kg car? Nobody. - unlike the McLaren, Ferrari, and Porsche 911(993)GT2, Lister, Jaguar XJ220, Venturi, Viper, and DeTomaso Pantera.

But perhaps the Lotus could at least be describrd as an Evolution of its roadcar siblings, where the 1996 Porsche 911 GT1 will always be described as a Revolution, despite its name.

I think BPR share some blame for this Porsche, as the 911 GT2 owners in that season must have been diasappointed when their 600bhp 720Nm +1125Kg Porsche 911 GT2 Evo was still so far off the pace and performance of the McLaren, Ferrari, Lotus, Viper, and Venturi. These cars all had more power and bar the Viper, all weighed less.
If BPR addressed this disparity properly it would have perhaps influenced the desperateness and exaggerated solution Porsche took, while keeping Porsche drivers competitive and happier in their currnet model GT2 Evo.

Compare that situation to the welcome given to Lotus and perhaps Porsche sportscar legends like teams Konrad, Freisinger, and Roock, were right to feel unfairly treated.

LC2guy · 9 Feb 2004, 12:16 (Ref:868127)

However, if Porsche hadn't come out with the 911 GT1 , we may never have witnessed ( even for just 2-3 years ) such cars as the Mercedes CLK, Long Tail McLaren , Panoz GTR , Toyota GT1 , Porsche GT1 Evo Etc. All these responded to the new Porsche moving the Goal Posts. And anyone who witnessed these cars in the flesh will agree, they looked and sounded far superior to any GT spec cars we have around today. ( only "In my opinion" of course ). Still, i can't wait to see the new Generation of GT cars.

**Aysedasi** · 9 Feb 2004, 13:04 (Ref:868185)

Here here, LC2guy - I wouldn't have missed them for anything.

noise boy 2 · 9 Feb 2004, 15:25 (Ref:868324)

Quote:

Originally posted by Chevyguy
I'm with JAG on that. Up until '02, you only needed one road car to enter any class. Then Porsche cried to the ACO about the BMW V8, causing the program to stop, and the Saleen S7R to be taken out of contention. Many blame Porsche's GT1 as the nail in the coffin for the GT1 class, but Toyota would have taken that blame if they won Le Mans. Toyota however gets credited as the killer of GTP/Group C in the early '90s. This is how the big factories affect sportscar racing, yet still only represent a small part of the grid. But I'm not teliing anybody anything they don't already know.

This is the oldest whine in the whine list. The M3GTR was allowed to race because BMW told the ACO that they would deliver, in the next model year, a v-8 powered version of the m3. Well the next year rolled around and no street car, so the race car was penalized for all of the infractions of the homologation rule book. The Saleen had a similar problem that was two-fold, the first was not enough street cars had been delivered to homologate (25 for small manufacturers), the second that too many of the cars that had been produced were race cars, not street cars (max allowable 25% of production to be race cars). Robert

jhansen · 9 Feb 2004, 15:44 (Ref:868339)

I don't recall hearing a manufacturer being blamed for the demise of Group C. Bernie and Max (FIA) were always the popular choices. How can Peugeot be blamed? Yes they utterly dominated in 1992, but against what, eight to twelve car fields? Even Le Mans had a small field that year. Something like 30 cars. The Jaguars took the honors in the 1991 WSC, so no dominance for Peugeot in that season. How exactly did they play a part?

Bob Riebe · 9 Feb 2004, 16:46 (Ref:868413)

Quote:

Originally posted by LC2guy
However, if Porsche hadn't come out with the 911 GT1 , we may never have witnessed ( even for just 2-3 years ) such cars as the Mercedes CLK, Long Tail McLaren , Panoz GTR , Toyota GT1 , Porsche GT1 Evo Etc. All these responded to the new Porsche moving the Goal Posts. And anyone who witnessed these cars in the flesh will agree, they looked and sounded far superior to any GT spec cars we have around today. ( only "In my opinion" of course ). Still, i can't wait to see the new Generation of GT cars.

I cannot see why some continue to blame Porsche for anything here. Porsche merely continued to do what they had alway done with production cars, it was really just a continuation of the style that had started with the 935. I.e. take a production car and see what can be done with its platform. Porsche did not move any goal posts, they did what was normal for their style.
Merecedes didn't move the goal posts either, they built a new ball park and created a new league.
If what Porsche did was so earth shattering Dodge would not have tried GT1 with the Viper. It was Mercedes building a sports racer with a roof, because they did not have car worth modifying, that was the beginning of the end.
Bob