[Multi 21] Red Bull-Honda

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by E.B

Maybe he has a point. Plus of course Rec Bull refuse to use the Renault recommended fuel and lubricants the engine was built to run on.

Actually, Mobil (and Petronas and others) are ahead of BP in anti-knock fuel formulations.

Reports say the BP fuel is holding back Renault and McLaren. McLaren will switch to Petrobas next season and only Renault works team will use BP fuel.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by E.B

perhaps the fault lies in their (RBR) size zero installation...

Nah the Honda RA615H (below) and RA616H remain far more "size zero" than any of the Renault power units have been, even the 2014 one. All the units have increasingly been getting bigger and bigger since then... nothing size zero about them anymore.

2015 Honda "size zero" RA615H:

2014 Renault F1 power unit:

[karting]

Apprently the Honda is now 40BHP up on the Renault engines

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by karting

Apprently the Honda is now 40BHP up on the Renault engines

Yeah we heard that too in Canada

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by karting

Apprently the Honda is now 40BHP up on the Renault engines

BHP = Broken Honda Parts?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

BHP = Broken Honda Parts?

STR finished 9th and 12th this Sunday, with Renault finishing 6th and 7th.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by karting

Apprently the Honda is now 40BHP up on the Renault engines

Yes, Honda definitely seems to have that performance in qualifying mode over Renault. The Rossos were in the top 10 in Q1. The difference seems much smaller in race mode.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

STR finished 9th and 12th this Sunday, with Renault finishing 6th and 7th.

Indeed, however Renault has a better chassis and had better starting positions.

[greentrumpet]

The Hondas still break far too much and seem unable to use this extra 40 bhp when it counts.

[E.B]

It seems to me that Honda have found a 'party mode' for qualifying that cannot be reproduced or used (reliably) in race trim.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by E.B

It seems to me that Honda have found a 'party mode' for qualifying that cannot be reproduced or used (reliably) in race trim.

Of course. It never was supposed to be used all the time, the point of the party modes are to match those that Ferrari and Mercedes users have. Renault power unit users have and remain at a disadvantage by not having a "party mode" for qualifying or crucial race laps.

[steve_r]

I cannot see it being a success in the short term, despite the channel 4 commentators tipping Max Verstappen for next years WDC solely on the basis that the Torro Rossos have had a couple of reasonable qualifying efforts recently.

Medium / long term - maybe, who knows.... but too much unreliability for now.

[S griffin]

Honda are still improving. We'll see what the RBR brings for them next season

[chillibowl]

right!

as long as its better than the Renault PU, the RB chassis will make up the difference imo.

i guess it also depends on how one defines success...no doubt the teams look for wins and titles but as a spectator i want to see the MV vs DR battle play out even if it is in the midfield. high hopes but i think it will be epic.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

right!

as long as its better than the Renault PU, the RB chassis will make up the difference imo.

i guess it also depends on how one defines success...no doubt the teams look for wins and titles but as a spectator i want to see the MV vs DR battle play out even if it is in the midfield. high hopes but i think it will be epic.

A chassis can't make up for a failed ICE or MGU-K.... or some external combustion work...

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

A chassis can't make up for a failed ICE or MGU-K.... or some external combustion work...

And a top perfoming ICE/MGU-K/MGU/H cannot make up for a failed chassis as Williams have demonstrated this season.
I would doubt if Honda will match Merc or Ferrari next year but the indications seem to be that they will at least be closer than Renault on the basis of the power and reliability comparison shown in the second half of this season.
I would suggest the penalty count that STR/Honda are accumulating at present is more down to running as many test components than to their reliability.
Unfortunately it seems Danny has made a Fernando type career choice!

[greentrumpet]

Possibly but RB have made it abundantly clear that he's a No 2 so would never have a crack at WDC. Given his performance vs Vettel ( ok perhaps not the best to measure against) and his racer's instinct I hope he and Renault will do well.

[Skam85]

The way Danny Ricc performed against Vettel, a 4-time champion in a team he was firmly entrenched within, is a very good measure I would have thought.

[S griffin]

He's had so much unreliability, yet he looked so strong in the title race earlier in the season. So no reason to suggest he's not a number 1 driver, far from it

[TrapezeArtist]

Sorry, i haven't read much of the last 293 posts but I thought it was time to express an opinion.

When Honda first came into F1 in 2015 (I think), people were saying that the engine may be bog-slow and horribly unreliable, but this is Honda: they'll soon sort it out. Over their time with McLaren they improved a little but were nowhere near matching the other power units.

Eventually McLaren jumped ship and switched to Renault in 2018. Unfortunately they produced a dog of a car, but still performed better than with a Honda in the back.

In the meantime Torro Rosso took over the Honda engine. Some people were forecasting that Honda would come good in 2018 and TR would make McLaren look silly. At the moment McLaren are three places ahead of TR in the constructors championship and have almost double the points.

Ever since the Red Bull-Renault stopped being the dominant force in F1 and winning championships, Red Bull have rubbished Renault at every opportunity. They only managed to hang on to an engine supply at all by coming to some sort of accommodation whereby the Renault would be badged as TAG-Heuer. Nevertheless, Horner/Marko/Verstappen have spent 2018 blaming all their woes on "Renault".

Next year Red Bull will have a Honda power unit. Through the season they've made appropriately optimistic noises while Honda have been trying all sorts of updates and upgrades in the Torro Rosso, without much sign of progress. Still people are saying "But this is Honda" and they will definitely come good in 2019. Some are even predicting that a Red Bull driver will win the WDC.

Personally I follow the evidence, not wishful thinking or 20 year-old history. There is very little to suggest that Red Bull-Honda will be successful in 2019, and plenty to suggest they won't.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

while Honda have been trying all sorts of updates and upgrades in the Torro Rosso, without much sign of progress.

I agree with most of what you say. Particularly with predictions of a RBR WDC in 2019! Never say never, but that is a long shot.

But, I will say IMHO, the part quoted above is something you have wrong. I think it is easy to say that objectively Honda has made huge strides forward with the PU. They have gone from extremely poor reliability and performance in 2017 to being (+/-) on par with the Renault PU (which can win races). Or if you don’t believe that assertion, at a minimum, they are close enough to have a legitimate point for argument.

Honda + STR+ RBR stopped focusing on 2018 on track results quite a long time ago. I am not saying 2018 points don’t matter to them, but the path to 2019 is the focus. As they find reliability they immediately move to develop the engine vs accepting the status quo and focusing on points. That is what is driving the level of PU penalties at this point. The downside is that this can be two steps forward and one back at times. What has not worked is the 2018 STR chassis. It’s my understanding they brought no significant updates to the car for quite awhile and the updates they did bring have not worked as expected. I think I read somewhere that some of this is also experimenting with 2019 chassis concepts.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

At the moment McLaren are three places ahead of TR in the constructors championship and have almost double the points.

Yet McLaren have consistently been qualifying on the last rows, often behind Toro Rosso. Most of McLaren's points came from early in the season when others broke down or crashed.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Yet McLaren have consistently been qualifying on the last rows, often behind Toro Rosso. Most of McLaren's points came from Alonso's sheer brilliance.

Fixed that for you

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Most of McLaren's points came from early in the season when others broke down or crashed.

The exact same thing goes for Toro Rosso.

[E.B]

The sad part of it all is that McLaren, with a race win capable engine have a dreadful chassis, and should in reality have scored many many more points than they have. Instead they have barely half the points of the next worse Renault engined car. A truly woeful performance that cannot be blamed on an engine. Their chassis, like Williams, does not warrant or justify the engine they have.

At least Toro Rosso / Honda have admitted their second half of the season has been all about developing the Honda engine more fully for next year's expansion to four cars, and this has entailed sacrificing this year's points and results.

[F J Nedos]

Red Bull are known to pack the engine in tight for aero etc. That has affected reliability. I don't think STR pack it as tight. You can't call them reliable, test bed or not.

I think RB might be in for a world of pain due to this. From memory, STR didn't have many reliability issues when they ran the Renault and they weren't massively behind RBR in terms of pace. Look how far back and unreliable they are now.

The Renault doesn't seem to break down much in the Renault.

Honda may come good, or they might get jack of it and the potential bad mouthing from RBR. They were over the bad mouthing from McLaren who claimed to have the best chassis on the grid. A repeat of the slanging match might force them to either create a factory car, or focus on hybrid/electric and bid farewell to F1.

Time will tell. Who knows.