The broad sunlit uplands of next March. Yeah, really. .

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

What will be the major changes when importing goods from the UK to France? And if it concerns labour only?

I have an engine from Belgium in the workshop . . . . no idea what the deal is there. although Covid prohibits a visit to collect it anyway.

[Derwent]

This thread seems to have derailed?

[John Turner]

Haha, not for the first time! Variable gauges, but I guess you have to think laterally!

[john ruston]

Word has it that cars exported/imported between UK / EU will be subject to duty!

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I have an engine from Belgium in the workshop . . . . no idea what the deal is there. although Covid prohibits a visit to collect it anyway.

Was it noticeable is that for labour done in the UK at least, our suppliers became very strict about the VAT charges. Was not the case some years ago…*I think we'll see no or minor changes in the coming year. Well, hope so.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Word has it that cars exported/imported between UK / EU will be subject to duty!

How's that gonna work then?

If tariff-free trade has been agreed, I can't see how cars can be singled out to have duty applied to them?

And I sure as hell can't see VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Peugeot, Renault et al putting up with their cars suddenly costing a lot more here without it adding to their own coffers.

[midgetman]

No idea what this means I'm just the messenger, I leave this without comment. It's part of a story about small EU businesses not wanting to trade with UK any more.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by midgetman

No idea what this means I'm just the messenger, I leave this without comment. It's part of a story about small EU businesses not wanting to trade with UK any more.



Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

I've seen something similar elsewhere, which quoted a couple of firms, one from Belgium and the other Dutch, who said that because of the change brought in on Jan 1st, they will no longer supply goods to the UK because a) it's not cost effective, and b) because they have no wish to have to study UK tax rules and implement those rules. One added that they supply to 195 countries and the UK is the only one that wants to treat the suppliers as unpaid tax collectors.

[midgetman]

That was the article I read.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[Gerard C]

If people are "frustrated" because of the hassle about who collects the VAT, let them go to hell they have nothing to do in any business. Honest! Typically french this kind of stupid attitude. they want money but certainly want to do no s……t on their spot.
As to any tariff on the imported cars, I thing the main threaten is coming from China. Those people can produce very acceptable copies of a bummer or other. They dont copy Pugs, tho…

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

they will no longer supply goods to the UK because a) it's not cost effective, and b) because they have no wish to have to study UK tax rules and implement those rules. One added that they supply to 195 countries and the UK is the only one that wants to treat the suppliers as unpaid tax collectors.

Cant believe those belonies. Not cost effective? They can't manage properly their companies and calculate the costs. When I buy from Germany, two different prices appear. When I place the order, I'm warned that I must understand that the price is out of VAT then the french VAT will be applied and collected.Nothing nothing at all new.
Ha, yes something's new at least in France. Its getting harder to cheat with custom fees and VAT. If you play the game as should, no problem at all.

[terence]

The true sides of Brexit slowly unfolding.

[john ruston]

Before anyone gets to excited I understand there will be a year of sorting side agreements where any issues will be sorted . It will be awkward to classic car business if duties are imposed . Assume no duty on new cars, Germans wouldn’t want that!

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Word has it that cars exported/imported between UK / EU will be subject to duty!

If they can add it, they will add it . . . . I bought a 1967 Gibson Bass guitar from the US about 6 years ago ( classic Jack Bruce - Cream one) . . . . nice plank of wood @ £1500 just over half the price of the equivalent here. Despite every form saying vintage plank etc I got stung for £200 on arrival.

have never bought a car from the US. do look at 356's every now and then

edit. Have seen the VAT thing a few times already, think it applies to smaller companies, a few scooter part suppliers ( Italiy/Germany) are getting their heads round it, but temporarily suspended deliveries, also my shirt man in Spain has some cloth on hold. Now a good shirt is an essential supply!!! DOn't get me started on cheese

[Duddha]

I have read this thread since the beginning and followed up, funny enough I left France 5 years ago to work in Switzerland but decided to live there as well even though living across the border would make me a rich man and save a lot of money but whatever and anyway. Switzerland is a perfect example of non-EU country officially but that has far more agreements with the EU than all the British people I have met could imagine, period as when talking of Brexit, they always gave the example of Switzerland and how good it is!

There are tariffs and duties on import and on almost everything above 80€ value more or less. I deal with bicycles a lot and sports good generally, trust me you have to pay a lot to get things through the border legally here and other aspect is that up to last year more or less, you couldn't get anything from Amazon as an example. This because sellers, including Amazon itself would not complete the mandatory documentation to have the goods through customs and it's only since Amazon made a deal with the Swiss customs that everything gets through but for more money of course.

On the other hand, talking with Swiss people and having learned a lot, agreements exist and have been put in place but it took more than a year or two and still, tariffs and duties remain, even worst, there are brands and goods you cannot get here because the market is not considered valuable enough for those brands. On the classic car thing, same story, best is to buy "already" Swiss as given the values and market, it gets costly to import here and they have very good eyes or ways to follow you up if you mess with the customs, have had a few friend experience it and being fined.

So why would Brexit not be a pain? I thought it was about taking back control and protecting the island

[Peter Mallett]

The VAT thing was a given. Where you had the choice of paying VAT at source or in the receiving country you now pay it at source. Thus companies have to demonstrate the payment. Not beyond the wit of man IMO. Again, all normal business for those working outside the EU such as dealing with the USA.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The VAT thing was a given. Where you had the choice of paying VAT at source or in the receiving country you now pay it at source. Thus companies have to demonstrate the payment. Not beyond the wit of man IMO. Again, all normal business for those working outside the EU such as dealing with the USA.

It doesn't affect the big boys as they're already set up, with structures, procedures and margins to cope, just screws all the little guys. Plus ca change!

If I had a succesful EU business and 10-15% of my business was complicated over night with margins wiped out, why wouldn't I shut the door. At least until the numpties who caused the problem sort it all out.

for most of us, the difference will be paying 20% more for what we previously had, or making a compromise on style, quality and/or origin.

[grantp]

The VAT "harmonisation" within the EU was blamed for a number of VAT introductions in the UK - including the so called "tampon tax" and the excuse to increase the rate of the "Value added" concept from 15% to 20%, though I doubt many politician bemoaned the opportunity to blame someone else for the extended tax grab.

Taxes and Duties have long been a means for States to grab some funding and in the days of computers it should be easy enough to find some software to handle the tasks or, if that is not acceptable, simply outsource it to another organisation geared up to undertake the work.

It may be an annoying intrusion on a system that seemed to work well enough but then trade processes have always been fair game for such manipulations and anything outside the EU was and is still a pain to deal with even if the process was ostensibly straight forward. Whether a system change is a problem is fundamentally down to what the parties involved are trying to achieve.

If you really like examples of complexity - even internally - try the USA as an example.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The VAT thing was a given. Where you had the choice of paying VAT at source or in the receiving country you now pay it at source. Thus companies have to demonstrate the payment.

Right. The demonstration of payment, for businesses from the UK to France seriously started two or three years ago. When buying from Germany, the supplier apply our VAT rate being responsible for the collection.
No more cheating possible which is a good thing.
From US to France, its different, we pay everything including shipping costs to the supplier, in USD and ex local taxes. Then goods are delivered. Half a month later, we receive another bill edited by our custom services, asking for taxes - including import ones - and another time for transportation. Hence some of my mates stopping to refurbish Yank cars. I see nothing new.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Right. The demonstration of payment, for businesses from the UK to France seriously started two or three years ago. When buying from Germany, the supplier apply our VAT rate being responsible for the collection.
No more cheating possible which is a good thing.
From US to France, its different, we pay everything including shipping costs to the supplier, in USD. Then goods are delivered. Half a month later, we receive another bill edited by our custom services, asking for taxes - including import ones - and another time for transportation. Hence some of my mates stopping to refurbish Yank cars.

I recently looked at buying an item from the USA. Personal use. Sales price is $400. The item is not, so far as I have discovered, available in the UK or Europe although lesser versions of it are at about the same price or a little more.


So I would need to pay for freight (about $40) and pay local VAT (20% still as far as I know). Plus a Duty. The Duty is product categorisation dependent. The lists available for the categories do not make it easy or certain to categorise but I think it would carry a 2.5% Duty charge. All in all and assuming I got the assessment right it looks like I could import the product from the US for less then I would be asked to pay for its less capable lower priced sibling form any European source under any of its "Brand" names.



As advertised prices in the USA normally omit Sales taxes, etc., the question of where the tax should be paid is moot. In the US one pays the taxes on purchases locally for the most part. Tax accounting can be horribly complicated at the corporate level. It doesn't seem to stop people trading.



Some see the complexity as an opportunity of one sort or another.


Of course how much one should pay in taxes for a pile of rust is another discussion for a different place.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

It doesn't affect the big boys as they're already set up, with structures, procedures and margins to cope, just screws all the little guys. Plus ca change!

If I had a succesful EU business and 10-15% of my business was complicated over night with margins wiped out, why wouldn't I shut the door. At least until the numpties who caused the problem sort it all out.

for most of us, the difference will be paying 20% more for what we previously had, or making a compromise on style, quality and/or origin.

This is where I get confused. You were always paying or charging VAT so why will it be more expensive? Unless someone is expecting 15 or 20% on top to produce a piece of paper. In which case spend ten mins and do it yourself. I suspect Sage or other accountancy software already deals with these things.

Yes, it is different but so far I haven't heard anything to change my view, since I've mostly worked outside the EU and dealt with these things as normal business.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by grantp

I recently looked at buying an item from the USA. Personal use. / Some see the complexity as an opportunity of one sort or another.

Yes a little bit confusing I must admit. When its for one of my cars, I'm subject to "mind accounting", you know why. Then when I spot something advertised at say 1000 $, my oriented calculation gives c 1500 € when everything is paid.
Having some family in LA, I thought I could do something but unfortunately, due to emissions laws affecting California, some parts are said illegal there. I studied carefully this when buying a lot of parts from Lindsay for my 951.
No worry, no hassle, no nothing for parts sent fromChina, those people do know how to manage to escape from duties of all sorts.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

This is where I get confused. You were always paying or charging VAT so why will it be more expensive? Unless someone is expecting 15 or 20% on top to produce a piece of paper. In which case spend ten mins and do it yourself. I suspect Sage or other accountancy software already deals with these things.



Yes, it is different but so far I haven't heard anything to change my view, since I've mostly worked outside the EU and dealt with these things as normal business.

But what you're missing Peter is that up until Friday Zef didn't have to do it. And yes Sage it whoever does produce the appropriate report, but it's more "stuff" that has to be done on top of grinding cylinder heads or running karts or whatever actually generates the money.

I have a number of friends - one man bands - who have exported to citizens of the EU for years. It didn't require any VAT shenanigans, one simply sold it like selling to Mrs Miggins in the UK. I heard from.one of them recently, he was struggling how to categorise plastic bodied laser chain aligners. He'd never had to do that before, because he wanted to spend more time making stuff than administering it. Hence he did not advertise to non-EU markets and was doing quite nicely thank you.

It wasn't helped by Boris not getting all this hammered out until the last possible minute.


Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

This is where I get confused. You were always paying or charging VAT so why will it be more expensive? Unless someone is expecting 15 or 20% on top to produce a piece of paper. In which case spend ten mins and do it yourself. I suspect Sage or other accountancy software already deals with these things.

Yes, it is different but so far I haven't heard anything to change my view, since I've mostly worked outside the EU and dealt with these things as normal business.

I'm sure it will sort itself out in time, cost/price differentials TBC.

When I buy some parts from the US I know they'll get VAT added, and whichever pirates (DHL are great!) handle them also have a free license to charge what they want ( always more ) for 'handling' but you know roughly where you stand before hand and apply a suitable margin to cover yourself. It usually works, unless the £ tanks mid shipment!

within the EU, in my working lifetime, its a straight transaction, nothing hidden, simple. Now thasts changed we go through a 'grey' period until it settles down, may be a month, may be 10 years. You may be familiar with that as the norm, but it doesn't make it a good thing. life's been made deliberately more complicated, for no good reason, choices will be diminished and costs will go up.

Thankfully I don't rely on cylinder heads or engines to put food on the table. Euro customers can't come here and no one in the UK has any money to spend, or need for them currently!

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by midgetman

But what you're missing Peter is that up until Friday Zef didn't have to do it. And yes Sage it whoever does produce the appropriate report, but it's more "stuff" that has to be done on top of grinding cylinder heads or running karts or whatever actually generates the money.

Actually I'm not missing it. Hence my point about Sage (other software is available) or do it yourself. As far as I can see for us one man bands or small businesses there is very little additional cost since overheads are minimal. Larger organisations will no doubt already have the tools since they've been sending goods all around the world anyway.

Those of us providing services in various countries will also have withholding taxes etc. to handle. Again, a change to the previous EU regime but nothing to get worked up about.