[ELMS] ELMS (was LMS) 2012 discussion

[ascarracinguk]

How about this for an idea....go back to last year and leave the fecking series alone! There was nothing wrong with it as it was....

[Sodemo]

Was there a big crowd?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by tux

Maybe you could have an LMPC & GTC only race for 90/120 min as a support for the Le Mans 24 hours to make running in LMPC & GTC worth the investment.

I like this idea. Right now there is very little incentive to run these cars (particularly GTC) in an ACO-style championship so a Le Mans support race would give them a little credibility.

For GTC it probably works in the USA because there aren't hundreds of different places to run a Porsche GT3 Cup car, but in Europe it needs something to make it stand out a little because there are so many competing GT championships. Plus for me FLM doesn't make a lot of sense when you have the cheaper Speed series as your support race, but combine the two somehow and perhaps it'll work, particularly with the increase in CN car builders who might be looking for a future at Le Mans. Again, perhaps an LM support race would add incentive.

[Deleted]

LMPC/GTC support race wouldn't work in Europe simply because there is zero interest. Even when FLM cars had a support series of their own in 2009 there weren't that many entries

As I have been saying all along, there is one place where the PC/GTC support race would have been extremely useful -> Petit Le Mans. Obviously with the somewhat reduced field this year no need for that now

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Mr. Peter ruined the LMS, placing Zolder (cancelled round) the same moment as the Ring 24 that was a joke. A joke too when you go at Donington while there is GT Open not far away. Let's be honest the WEC killed the LMS that's for sure, but the series origanizers are doing everything to make it worse.

[old man]

The teams all had interviews with Mr Peter and so no doubt he got lots of ideas. The summary on DSC this morning is interesting but IMO misses one very basic point: Doing well in either the old FIA GT series, the LMS or the ALMS got you one of the coveted LM 24 entries and so was a major incentive. Now all you have to have is enough money to enter the WEC/ILMS and you are there, no actual qualification required, just money!

This fact downgrades the LM24 in my eyes as it is just another race in a series and if the world series does not capture the imagination of the market then the "Great Race" will be the loser. I think we should seriously consider the LM24 being stand alone again, make it a reward for success?

The world series would then have to be something that the entrants saw as worth winning and the series would have to compete for attention.

[Deleted]

IMO Le Mans should never have been part of the calendar (even in the old WSC days), and you have hit nail in the head - that is one the main reasons why the system doesn't work and why LMS has become less appealing for the teams. It also handicaps WEC as a championship as the entries are limited to 30 because of the Le Mans space issues, so primaly the ones with the biggest wallets get in

[spectre200]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Was there a big crowd?

There was no place that looked busy, just small groups around the track, where it was open. (Half the infield is still a building site.) I'd guess less than 1000; certainly less than back in 2006.

I was really in two minds whether to go or not, but I promised my boy weeks ago, and neither of us regretted it.

[Marcel ten Caat]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Mr. Peter ruined the LMS, placing Zolder (cancelled round) the same moment as the Ring 24 that was a joke. A joke too when you go at Donington while there is GT Open not far away. Let's be honest the WEC killed the LMS that's for sure, but the series origanizers are doing everything to make it worse.

As we mentioned in the article on DSC that old man refers to, most of the people that used to work in the Le Mans Series are now working in the FIA World Endurance Championship. It's basically Patrick Peter's people running it. Question there is...has the ELMS had the attention it deserves from Peter Auto?

[walkercdd]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Mr. Peter ruined the LMS, placing Zolder (cancelled round) the same moment as the Ring 24 that was a joke. A joke too when you go at Donington while there is GT Open not far away. Let's be honest the WEC killed the LMS that's for sure, but the series origanizers are doing everything to make it worse.

The ELMS missed it's slot on the international calender so only had a lacklustre line-up available when they where ready to commit.

More forward plannng and a little co-operation and you could have a schedule as follows.


Paul Ricard
Nurburgring
Donington/Brands Hatch
Monza
Barcelona
Brno

How the ELMS goes forward is very much dependent on how early they can sort their calender (the WEC will be announced at Sao Paulo) and what happend the FIA GT series, it could be the FIA strips those of their backing.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Let's be honest the WEC killed the LMS that's for sure

Lets not throw our dummies outta the pram too soon , isnt that what we all wanted in the first place , a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP !!!

Something had to suffer ..... lets face it , it doesnt look like the world can support the WEC , ALMS , ELMS and AsLMS right now . Plus there is every micky mouse series for GT's running too .....

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Lets not throw our dummies outta the pram too soon , isnt that what we all wanted in the first place , a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP !!!

Something had to suffer ..... lets face it , it doesnt look like the world can support the WEC , ALMS , ELMS and AsLMS right now . Plus there is every micky mouse series for GT's running too .....

A World Championship is a great idea, but the implementation is the key. I doubt many would have voted for a World Championship that had this effect on ACO racing. You know that I've been an opponent of this structure from the beginning, and this has been completely avoidable in my opinion. Asian LeMans Series is a complete pipe dream, I have no idea why the ACO insists on doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A World Championship is a great idea, but the implementation is the key. You know that I've been an opponent of this structure from the beginning, and this has been completely avoidable in my opinion. Asian LeMans Series is a complete pipe dream, I have no idea why the ACO insists on doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

Ok then , how would you approach the issue of repairing whats been done , and making it look rosey for the future ..... reasonable conversation .

Sportscar racing has always been big in japan , but I feel they already have a popular and successful championship , without the AsLMS ..... but Asia is also bigger than Japan too .

I feel there is way too many piddley GT series doing the rounds , and thats taking its toll too .

Perhaps we should open a new thread for this ?

[Fogelhund]

The fix... my ideas haven't changed on this for some time...

First, make WEC a LMP1 championship only.

WEC races with ELMS and ALMS at select events. Say two ALMS, two ELMS, plus LM. Participation in WEC requires full participation in one of the ALMS or ELMS. If AsLMS ever actually gets off the ground () then we can incorporate them as well.

GTE-PRO ends up with 8 entries, GTE-AM has 10 entries, if you assume that the two "American" entries go away, but the remaining stay. Even if you only include 18ish GTE entries, and a dozen LMP2 entries, ELMS now has a good field, as you've taken away the option for GTE cars. ELMS is strong again.



With restricting WEC to LMP1, you also are highly unlikely to end up with entry numbers issues, so there will be no issues with running at Petit Le Mans, Sebring, Silverstone or Spa. ELMS is back to running at the classic tracks, with no other real competition for LMP2 or GTE cars.

It is probable that both the ALMS and ELMS will pick up top level LMP1 teams that they don't currently have. It might also be probable that Dyson or Cytosport would consider running in the WEC, as it only adds TWO more races to their schedule.

The "National/Domestic" series need the entrants and the quality, and the LMP1 manufacturers need the status of the WEC.

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A World Championship is a great idea, but the implementation is the key. I doubt many would have voted for a World Championship that had this effect on ACO racing. You know that I've been an opponent of this structure from the beginning, and this has been completely avoidable in my opinion. Asian LeMans Series is a complete pipe dream, I have no idea why the ACO insists on doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

According to Gordon Gekko, it's called insanity

A WEC could be successful but the consequence would be, taken at its extreme, that you go from grids of 70 cars between ALMS and ELMS to just 20-30 cars.

Many investors, teams, drivers, just don't have the interest, money, or time to be flying around the world all year long in places where their businesses don't exist or where they take too much time away from the businesses that allow them, their teams, and the drivers they hire to do what they do.

You'll always need Regional Series, someway or another. Failing to do your part to support them is in the end suicide. We saw it with WSC. We'll see it with WEC if ACO is not careful. I don't even mention FIA because anything that gets close to F1's popularity is stepped on if not obliterated, and if ACO is stupid enough not to see it, it could happen.

[DELB]

The ALMS is a premier US series that ranks alongside NASCAR and Indycar.

The ELMS has only ever been a first step towards the return of the World Championship, it's been treated as such by manufacturers and the media since 2004.

Today the ELMS could thrive with a top class that is affordable to many teams and see the cream rise to the top, rather than an Lmp 1 field with a couple of cars taking the spotlight. The ELMS is in desperate need of GT cars, they will baiscally accept anyone so it's a scary thought to think only 3 cars ran at Donington when there must be 200 or more eligable GT cars running in various series across the continent.

Assume all is right with the 2013 ELMS in terms of the tracks and TV. If GT teams continue to stay away they'll eventually have to use the nuclear option, remove GTE cars from Le Mans. The only reason GT3 cars won't be at Le Mans in the next couple of years is because GTE manufacturers put their foot down, well, unless they put their foot down and tell their teams to support Le Mans series, Le Mans should invite CN cars as the third class with GT3 becoming the premier production class.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by DELB

The ALMS is a premier US series that ranks alongside NASCAR and Indycar.

I am one of the series bigger fans, but seriously this is a massive disconnect from reality.

[Deleted]

LMP1-only WEC will never work... you would never get enough cars for full grid and you'd have to create sub classes for privateers as they're already fed up with the situation.

Why would the P1 grid see significant increase if the other classes were dropped? It's the top category even now so there's hardly anything bigger at stake and the series will never grow to be as big as the old WSC anyways. O.K so ACO could grant more entries but let's face it, ACO would've put 15 P1s to the WEC grid anyways if there had been enough interest this year (by reducing P2s or GTE-AMs most probably)

One of the reasons for the failure of FIA GT1 WC is the single class formula... old FIA GT2 could have been a good backup category

My preference:
LM24 - merge GTE classes but keep the structure otherwise; stand-alone event
WEC - LMP1 & LMP2 only
ALMS - fine as it is though you may wanna merge P1/P2 like in 2010
ELMS - time to give up
ASLMS - time to stop daydreaming dear ACO

Non-IMSA GTEs could continue to run in IGTO

Also, preferably re-introduce GT1 (not the old, but create a new one) to partly fix the waiver-bop mess we now have in GTE

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Chiana

LMP1-only WEC will never work... you would never get enough cars for full grid and you'd have to create sub classes for privateers as they're already fed up with the situation.

I think there has been a misunderstanding. The WEC races would run in conjunction with ELMS and ALMS races, not as standalones. Only LMP1 cars are eligible to actually be in the championship. The full ALMS and ELMS grids would be there already.

[Deleted]

Oh ok nvm then, I guess I only read a litte bit from the start that actually makes some sense

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The fix... my ideas haven't changed on this for some time...

First, make WEC a LMP1 championship only.

WEC races with ELMS and ALMS at select events. Say two ALMS, two ELMS, plus LM. Participation in WEC requires full participation in one of the ALMS or ELMS. If AsLMS ever actually gets off the ground () then we can incorporate them as well.

GTE-PRO ends up with 8 entries, GTE-AM has 10 entries, if you assume that the two "American" entries go away, but the remaining stay. Even if you only include 18ish GTE entries, and a dozen LMP2 entries, ELMS now has a good field, as you've taken away the option for GTE cars. ELMS is strong again.



With restricting WEC to LMP1, you also are highly unlikely to end up with entry numbers issues, so there will be no issues with running at Petit Le Mans, Sebring, Silverstone or Spa. ELMS is back to running at the classic tracks, with no other real competition for LMP2 or GTE cars.

It is probable that both the ALMS and ELMS will pick up top level LMP1 teams that they don't currently have. It might also be probable that Dyson or Cytosport would consider running in the WEC, as it only adds TWO more races to their schedule.

The "National/Domestic" series need the entrants and the quality, and the LMP1 manufacturers need the status of the WEC.

YES YES YES!!! By making the WEC only for LMP1s, it gives all those LMP2s and GTEs back to ELMS. If AsLMS ever did come back, the WEC schedule could easily be Sebring, Spa, Le Mans, Silverstone, PLM, Fuji, China. The ALMS/ELMS/AsLMS support the WEC with entries and the WEC supports the three little series with coverage and "World Status." It would work.

[Salamus]

Just out of curiosity, do any of you think an LMP2 sprint format would ever work? The ELMS would evolve into 1-hour sprint races with only one driver. And if numbers are low, add a second class like GTE-Am or GT3.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Just out of curiosity, do any of you think an LMP2 sprint format would ever work? The ELMS would evolve into 1-hour sprint races with only one driver. And if numbers are low, add a second class like GTE-Am or GT3.

No, the Pro-Am nature is one of the reasons that LMP2 is so popular. Where there are two Am's it also reduces the costs.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I think there has been a misunderstanding. The WEC races would run in conjunction with ELMS and ALMS races, not as standalones. Only LMP1 cars are eligible to actually be in the championship. The full ALMS and ELMS grids would be there already.

I fully agree with you. LMP1 manufacturers will be able to race the globe as they wish (until the next financial crisis hits) while the local series would be propped up and the sport overall would be more healthy with privateers spending less money on travelling the globe while still racing in prestigious races. In addition, in case of a mass-manufacturer pullout, ACO-style sports car racing will still have two or three more championships to fall-back on if the WEC implodes, as we all should know History is doomed to repeat itself.

The AsLMS will never catch on, but if it did you could see a schedule something like this:

1. Sebring 12h (alms)
2. Spa 6h (elms)
3. Le Mans 24h
4. Mosport 1000 (alms)
5. Road America 500 (alms)
6. Monza 6h (elms)
7. Silverstone 6h (elms)
8. Petit Le Mans (alms)
9. Fuji 6h (aslms)
10. Shanghai 6h (aslms)

[pablocomics]

Ok, this is a forum and it´s a place to daydream but you´re starting to daydreaming too much.

The World endurance championship won´t be a unique class championship, like the World Sportscar Championship was never a one class championship. This is not F1 and it has no sense. If you leave the WEC just with LMP1 you´ll have grids with no more than 10 cars.

I don´t see anything wrong on the GTE-AM class, why do you hate that class that much? On sportcars there was always glenteman drivers (and the glentemen will be there in the future) and I don´t see anything wrong on having their own podium. There is nothing wrong on the private cup on LMP1 or the private cup of the WTCC, but why the GTE-AM is that bad?

The lack of good organization on the WEC doesn´t started this year, of course the WEC made the final backstab, but the past year grid was poor and there was no WEC. Things are going from bad to worst since long time ago.

There are a lot of problems in the ELMS
-Bad tv coverage
-Poor fan service (this year is the first with livestreaming, too late)
-Wrong race lengs (It has no sense to have all the races with 6 hours leng and it has even less sense with this crisis)
-Stupid schedule with coincidence with another championships
-The championship is excesively expensive considering the competence
-etc, etc, etc, etc.....