Honda Withdrawl from F1

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I propose a new rule. Any team or engine manufacturer who threatens to leave F1 if the rules aren't built the way they want them should be given a 10 year ban. Especially engine manufacturers only interested in pushing costs up to stop new entries.

What an absolutely stupid rule. This sort of scenario is best solved by fewer rules that allow the small teams to gain an advantage at less expense, not by creating a situation in which Ferrari appeal to the FIA to investigate the comments made by a disgruntled rival team principle after both cars suffer an engine problem in one Grand Prix and the resulting legal mess.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I propose a new rule. Any team or engine manufacturer who threatens to leave F1 if the rules aren't built the way they want them should be given a 10 year ban. Especially engine manufacturers only interested in pushing costs up to stop new entries.

That would have removed Ferrari for most of the history of the world championship.

[Akrapovic]

Only if the rule was introduced retrospectively. Using todays rules you can ban every car in the world championship backwards. But that isn't how rules work.

Stop allowing manufacturers to dictate the rules. They are here for a short time. We're allowing them to build a walled garden and when they leave we won't have anyone tall enough to scale the wall.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Only if the rule was introduced retrospectively. Using todays rules you can ban every car in the world championship backwards. But that isn't how rules work.

I realized that and I was just being silly, while pointing out that it has happened a lot. Perhaps even showing that there was something in what you said

[Taxi645]

I reckon Reb Bull should concentrate on the next power unit generation. If that is 2023, the 2022 Renault unit will do perfectly fine.

[gert]

FIA shouldn't give an as both Red Bull and Honda were against the freeze back when it was decided.
Now the situation hs changed and suddenly Red Bull need it.

Let them race with a Renault and plan for the next generation of enine rules.

Based on this year's engine performance, I don't think Reanult is that far off anyhow.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by gert

FIA shouldn't give an as both Red Bull and Honda were against the freeze back when it was decided.
Now the situation hs changed and suddenly Red Bull need it.

Let them race with a Renault and plan for the next generation of enine rules.

Based on this year's engine performance, I don't think Reanult is that far off anyhow.

Well, the main reason for not doing a freeze is that the current system has a solution for this. Which would likely be (as you say) for one or more PU supplier to be forced to supply RBR and AT. Most likely one each by Renault and Ferrari. That is just not the solution RBR/AT likes.

Also, to my understanding, short of some type of force majeure situation (which this isn't from an FIA/F1 perspective), any freeze in the near future needs to be a unanimous decision which is extremely unlikely without special compensation being provided to sweeten the deal for those in the "no" camp. And without those sweeteners moving Mercedes away from "yes".

Richard

[gert]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Well, the main reason for not doing a freeze is that the current system has a solution for this. Which would likely be (as you say) for one or more PU supplier to be forced to supply RBR and AT. Most likely one each by Renault and Ferrari. That is just not the solution RBR/AT likes.

2x Renault IMO.
Ferrari already has 3 teams (Alfa, Haas and Ferrari themselves), Renault only has 1 (themselves)

4-3-3 would be better than 4-4-2

Renault AND Ferrari would probably even worse for Red Bull than 2x Renault from a 'common component' and development point of view.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Also, to my understanding, short of some type of force majeure situation (which this isn't from an FIA/F1 perspective), any freeze in the near future needs to be a unanimous decision which is extremely unlikely without special compensation being provided to sweeten the deal for those in the "no" camp. And without those sweeteners moving Mercedes away from "yes".
Richard

Exactly, that's why it won't happen IMO.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by gert

4-3-3 would be better than 4-4-2
.

I dunno, they're both pretty old fashioned formations and don't really work in the current era that well unless the full backs are allowed to roam forward as wingers while the front players adopt a less traditional line.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by gert

2x Renault IMO.
Ferrari already has 3 teams (Alfa, Haas and Ferrari themselves), Renault only has 1 (themselves)

4-3-3 would be better than 4-4-2

Renault AND Ferrari would probably even worse for Red Bull than 2x Renault from a 'common component' and development point of view.

Sorry yes. I was going off your 2nd (and less likely) scenario from post #200. I seem to have somehow thought that was the prime scenario vs. the more likely of Renault doing both (at least it balances that way). I didn't go back and review that discussion before posting.

Regardless, the entire thing with my recent post is that talk of moving up the freeze is a longshot at best. There would have to be some behind the scenes arm twisting to make that happen. And I doubt anyone is in a position to allow their arms to be twisted.

Richard

[Richard C]

Wolff saying the freeze is unlikely to happen.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/w...nault/4902153/

Richard

[S griffin]

He obviously doesn’t have that much influence. We’ll see if not having the engine freeze does much to improve things. Time will tell, I’m sure there will be some cost cutting measures coming in in time

[Richard C]

I didn't think it would happen, but apparently enough arms were twisted to make it so. This is the boulder that needed to move to make the idea of Red Bull taking over the Honda engine program viable.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...-2022/5381277/

Richard

[Moneyseeker]

According to rumour it may be a Red Bull Audi in 2025.

[P38 in workshop]

We haven't had a VW to move into F1 rumour for several weeks.Can somebody think why the group,which has just pulled VW out of all ICE motorsport and dropped FE would do it?Unless of course there is some backstage politics about the nature and extent of the Hybrid element.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Wolff saying the freeze is unlikely to happen.

Engine freeze confirmed: https://the-race.com/formula-1/f1-to...eeze-for-2022/

[Moneyseeker]

More here..

https://www.racefans.net/2021/02/12/...tatus-in-2025/

They are speculating Red Bull Porsche in 2025

All the rumours indicate VW Group in some form could be RBR's engine supplier in 2025.

[S griffin]

So we finally gonna see the VW name return to F1? It's been long enough. The rumours have been non-stop these past 10 years

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

We haven't had a VW to move into F1 rumour for several weeks.Can somebody think why the group,which has just pulled VW out of all ICE motorsport and dropped FE would do it?Unless of course there is some backstage politics about the nature and extent of the Hybrid element.

Not sure what you're referring to here. VW was never in FE. If we're talking about the VAG as a whole, they have not dropped out of all ICE motorsports. They've just added LMDh to the future plans with Audi - Porsche looking to be involved too.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So we finally gonna see the VW name return to F1? It's been long enough. The rumours have been non-stop these past 10 years

Return, when was Volkswagen last in F1?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Return, when was Volkswagen last in F1?

Maybe it should read 'a' VW name?

[Akrapovic]

When was the last time a VAG brand was in F1? Porsche is the obvious one, but they were not VAG at that point.

[crmalcolm]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-in-formula-1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-in-formula-1

Accurate, but also to the point in the post above, I am pretty sure none were part of VAG at the time of their participation. So IMHO, its a pretty pointless discussion. It would be like if Tesla bought Honda and we then started to talk about the "Return of Tesla to F1"!! Now... if we want to talk about the return of Porsche, Audi, etc. then that makes sense.

Regarding Red Bull. I think their options going forward are...

1. Do their own solution in 2025
2. Partner with a manufacture

With a freeze, I expect there probably is little reason to expect they can't continue forward with whatever Honda provides them at the end of 2021. But, even with a simplified solution for 2025, there will be a good bit of R&D for whatever comes about as it will likely be similar, but yet different to what we have today (other thread to speculate on that). So I think unless the 2025 spec is extremely simple (i.e. off the shelf) and/or highly regulated to stop development, that Red Bull has to go with option #2. However they probably are exploring both options as negotiations for 2025 spec happens.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...s-in-formula-1

I did a bit of Googling and came across that as well.