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Old 3 Nov 2014, 08:20 (Ref:3471091)   #26
RED55
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Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1 View Post
Well, but no. Both STW and BTCC from 95 used FIA homoligation, outside of that there were no techincal waviers as far as I know?

As you all say, both Peugeots in STW and BTCC where the same cars, with MSD being the customer team, and as always with customer teams, they get parts later, do less testing and so on, they will always be behind. And in that era of Supertouring if you were 3 months behind, you were 0.5 sec a lap behind.

On the other hand, if you look at Opel it was the factory team in Germany that built and ran the cars for STW, while in BTCC it was first RML and then from 97 Tripple-8 that built and ran the cars. So naturally here there were no customer team, and they both had great success. So two different things.

But looking at Audi, Richard Lloyd Racing ran the cars in BTCC, which at the time was a "customer team" but with close cooperation from Audi in Germany, still had great success, as did every other customer Audi team in the whole world. Same with BMW.

Teams building cars for respective championships could develop their own parts within the st regs. There was something on the suspension that was different between the cars in UK and Germany,some kind of multilink variation I think , I believe it was tested on the Uk cars but outlawed by the BTCC .

Ludo Lacroix (now 888 V8 tech boss in Aus) was the engineer that ran Aiello in STW and he followed him to Nissan in BTCC, a very clever engineer who helped unlock something in the STW 406 and took with him that suspension understanding to RML hence the Nissans form.

There wasnt any real controlled parts back then so the sky was the limit and Germany were probably spending 3 times the btcc budget.

For sure very interesting days from a technical point of view .
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Old 3 Nov 2014, 16:03 (Ref:3471220)   #27
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I have vauge memories of the Pug being off the pace throughout the season, only to be bang on the pace at the end of season race at Donnington - maybe the one that Mansell raced in? Meh, I'm not too sure of this. Perhaps someone else remembers.
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Old 3 Nov 2014, 16:11 (Ref:3471223)   #28
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The 406 was good in the wet. Harvey drove it well. Watts persistently struggled however. Can't remember if Radisich - Watt's replacement - made anything of that car. Of course Watts resurfaced in Australia ST in a 406 of BTCC livery and starting winning there before he promptly ran out of cash. Always thought it was a big pity he couldn't complete that season.
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Old 5 Nov 2014, 07:09 (Ref:3471742)   #29
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Originally Posted by RED55 View Post
Teams building cars for respective championships could develop their own parts within the st regs. There was something on the suspension that was different between the cars in UK and Germany,some kind of multilink variation I think , I believe it was tested on the Uk cars but outlawed by the BTCC .

Ludo Lacroix (now 888 V8 tech boss in Aus) was the engineer that ran Aiello in STW and he followed him to Nissan in BTCC, a very clever engineer who helped unlock something in the STW 406 and took with him that suspension understanding to RML hence the Nissans form.

There wasnt any real controlled parts back then so the sky was the limit and Germany were probably spending 3 times the btcc budget.

For sure very interesting days from a technical point of view .
Yeah the Nissans ran a multilink system in the suspension, originating from the 4wd Nissan Primera rather then from the FWD Primera. However, the Nissan was already on form in 98 when Ried almost took the title from Rydell, and I do belive Nissan won the constructors title in 98. And it wasnt only RML that unlocked that potensial, also Team Dynamics did it remember.
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Old 5 Nov 2014, 07:36 (Ref:3471745)   #30
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very good points there about the nissan, I seem to remember the uk 406 having some engine issues because the engine block in those days on most cars was used as a stress member , The Uk version had flexing issus in the block which were later resolved , I think its after this MSD/Pug Uk approached Pug France about having the factory kit, they declined and PUG uk decided to pull out .

Pug Uk was like that all the way through BTCC , close but no cigar
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Old 18 Nov 2014, 17:49 (Ref:3476295)   #31
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The 406 was a beautiful looking car in its day. I really liked the green and gold BTCC livery.
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Old 20 Nov 2014, 11:53 (Ref:3476896)   #32
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I have vauge memories of the Pug being off the pace throughout the season, only to be bang on the pace at the end of season race at Donnington - maybe the one that Mansell raced in? Meh, I'm not too sure of this. Perhaps someone else remembers.
You're right it was the Mansell race in the middle of the year. Paul Radisich qualified third on the grid, only to be sent to the back, IIRC for leaking oil that spoiled other drivers runs, as this was the days of the one shot showdown.
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Old 17 Oct 2017, 12:55 (Ref:3774660)   #33
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Sorry to resurrect this thread, however does anyone have any reasonably concrete info on how exactly the STW car differed from the BTCC car? I have seen comments around the front suspension being "illegal" or verging on it. Could anyone expand on that?

Thanks.
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Old 18 Oct 2017, 12:38 (Ref:3774851)   #34
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I think we need a big super touring thread at some point. We don’t hear much about that era anymore and it’s hard to get much info on it
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 14:32 (Ref:3928901)   #35
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Bringing up this thread again due to a recent Autosport podcast, which can be found here https://www.autosport.com/podcast, entitled "Tim Harvey and the golden era of Super Touring"

In it, he talks about the Peugeot campaign, well worth a listen. Below are some bits:

Q: Peugeot was struggling with a different engine spec at times, didn't they, to what they were using in Europe very successfully.

TH: Yeh, that was the biggest waste of money and everyone's time and effort really, because MSD built the cars in the UK with absolutely no collaboration what-so-ever with Peugeot Sport in France who were building the cars for the German touring car championship [STW], which Aïello was winning in. We had absolutely no crossover of technical information, engines.

Q: Defeats the object of super-touring really, doesn't it, the point was it was the same spec?

TH: It was, exactly the same rules, but Peugeot France would not share anything with Peugeot UK and you just think for a manufacturer to have produced, what at the time was arguably the best car in Germany, not to share that out of Anglo-France bad relations seems absolutely bizarre.

It was three years of good, hard racing. It was fun with Patrick and good with Paul Radisich. We did the best we could with the budget. Our total bill was less than the French spent on engines.
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