[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Anybody have a fake or pretend spotter guide (sideways) design of a Toyota GR Super Sport hypercar in the Gazoo racing livery?

[S griffin]

Now it remains to be seen if Toyota will keep their advantage throughout. Still a long way to go

[kvenom]

Officially slowed 1.4sec/lap for the #7 and 1.0sec/lap for the #8 per the success handicap

[Japanese Samurai]

According to latest Autosport magazine AD,
SANEI publishing will release "All of TS050 HYBRID" magazine on Oct.4.
It seems that the hybrid system components of TS050 from the engine to the motor will be revealed. 　
http://www.as-books.jp/preview/7213/77/

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to latest Autosport magazine AD,
SANEI publishing will release "All of TS050 HYBRID" magazine on Oct.4.
It seems that the hybrid system components of TS050 from the engine to the motor will be revealed. 　
http://www.as-books.jp/preview/7213/77/

Revealing such information could be an indication that they will go for something different in the next version (TS060).

[Deleted]

Up to this point I think secrecy's been wise - I mean why would you tell more to the competitors than needed - but I don't think there will be need for any of such when it becomes a bop class. The hybrid on the Hypercar will be for public relations reasons more than anything as there won't be any advantage to it

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Up to this point I think secrecy's been wise - I mean why would you tell more to the competitors than needed - but I don't think there will be need for any of such when it becomes a bop class. The hybrid on the Hypercar will be for public relations reasons more than anything as there won't be any advantage to it

Not entirely true, the advantages becomes minimal, but some are still to be found.
If the Hybrid system is deployed on the front wheels, giving the car periodical four wheel drive, it can out accelerate its competitors and slower GT's.

Even though two LMPs run the same lap times (essentially BOP'ed), the Hybrid would in the race still have an upper hand as it would be able to get through traffic quicker.

So an advantage is still there, but hardly worth much development into further efficiency.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by CTD

Not entirely true, the advantages becomes minimal, but some are still to be found.
If the Hybrid system is deployed on the front wheels, giving the car periodical four wheel drive, it can out accelerate its competitors and slower GT's.

Even though two LMPs run the same lap times (essentially BOP'ed), the Hybrid would in the race still have an upper hand as it would be able to get through traffic quicker.

So an advantage is still there, but hardly worth much development into further efficiency.

But do you really believe that the competitors (read: Aston Martin in their hybridless hybrid road car) would just stand by and let them have such advantage? Now that the mathematical formulas have been killed off and BoP will be set by parameters of "whatever we come up with", the ACO won't stop at identical laptimes, but probably put Toyota a little bit behind in overall power/weight levels in order to compensate for the hybrid boost. Toyota can still brag about the power of hybrid when it's initialized, but in overall pace terms it actually won't matter at all (except in very overtaking occasions maybe). I suspect this will result in bopped Astons getting poles more of the time, but Toyota coming back in race form

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

But do you really believe that the competitors (read: Aston Martin in their hybridless hybrid road car) would just stand by and let them have such advantage? Now that the mathematical formulas have been killed off and BoP will be set by parameters of "whatever we come up with", the ACO won't stop at identical laptimes, but probably put Toyota a little bit behind in overall power/weight levels in order to compensate for the hybrid boost. Toyota can still brag about the power of hybrid when it's initialized, but in overall pace terms it actually won't matter at all (except in very overtaking occasions maybe). I suspect this will result in bopped Astons getting poles more of the time, but Toyota coming back in race form

Honestly I have no idea, as I know nothing about how ACO/FIA actually set the BoP. I agree that it is most likely that there will be a lot of politics involved for this aspect. However I do not expect that a hybrid manufacture would allow themselves to be slower on a qualifying lap because of more advanced tech.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by CTD

Honestly I have no idea, as I know nothing about how ACO/FIA actually set the BoP. I agree that it is most likely that there will be a lot of politics involved for this aspect. However I do not expect that a hybrid manufacture would allow themselves to be slower on a qualifying lap because of more advanced tech.

Other than odd political "turn of favor" to be served on occasion, I don't think they have any saying it. It is the price they pay for agreeing to run in modern BoP formula and getting more brands in. Aston Martin will have inferior tech but they will want "equal chance at everything" just as they do in GTE, and that means poles at Le Mans as well. And if Toyota has superior traffic capability that will have to be counter-compensated somehow, which will surely be in reduced overall power levels at circuit like Le Mans. Now, I don't think higher straight line speed on AMR is the only answer as the nonhybrid P1 privateers already have that against TS050 and it doesn't really affect anything. Maybe on chicane-less Mulsanne it would but not now...

[GasperG]

As far as I know hybrid boost is limited at speeds over 120 kph in the hypercar regs. This is already something that negates a little of the benefit in traffic.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by GasperG

As far as I know hybrid boost is limited at speeds over 120 kph in the hypercar regs. This is already something that negates a little of the benefit in traffic.

Right, and in the wet. We've seen this before somewhat in 2012 and 2013 with the TS030 RWD kers vs Audi FWD above 120kmh. Maybe a little different because they both were hybrids compared to next season.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Right, and in the wet. We've seen this before somewhat in 2012 and 2013 with the TS030 RWD kers vs Audi FWD above 120kmh. Maybe a little different because they both were hybrids compared to next season.

We no longer see any Hybrid advantage especially with BOP, weight and complexity. Our TTV6 will easily make maximum allowed HP.

[Deleted]

Right, as I've said hybrid will become entirely about PR. As will all other tech factors, nothing else. Even the ex-P1 VAG teams in Formula E with their cheap spec cars can boast more about their technology having bigger impact in race outcomes. The most WEC teams can say is the usual line in BoP line of work, which is "we have real variety in our class and manufacturers have come up with different answers to the same question" etc

[TF110]

Depending on how much the hybrid is limited there's still advantages to it. The total power is down but how much storage is allowed and how much or how often can they deploy? That's the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned. Right now Toyota has 8mj per lap at Le Mans, what is the new total?

[chernaudi]

Based on the power output limits and such that I've read, I'm probably guessing roughly 3.5MJ like in 2013.

[S griffin]

Well that's how much it should be, we'll see when it next gets to race

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Well that's how much it should be, we'll see when it next gets to race

How much it should be...?

[TF110]

It should be unlimited imo with a cap on the power total released at a time. So if the rules say 750hp, limit the hybrid output to 150hp with 600hp from the ice engine. I feel the hybrid should be allowed to release said 150hp as much as possible from their 120kmh and upwards. There should be no 3.5mj per lap limit, not even 8mj per lap limit. Why? If it proves too much, drop the output to 100hp or better yet, up the power of non-hybrids. These artificial limits look weird on paper and not even well-understood.

[GasperG]

One thing Toyota could do is make a production version of GR Super Sport that will be faster around the race track than a race version. Now that would be a true demonstration of Technology and mockery of ACO rules

[Deleted]

That'd be difficult because the road car versions have almost always superior power and speed levels to the racing counterparts, but not the aerodynamics and downforce which will kill them off in corners in comparison. Maybe chicane-less Monza work but...

Anything to mock these rules I'm in for of course

[GingerPixel]

I would imagine that rubber would also be a limiting factor.

[GasperG]

I think the weight would be the biggest limiting factor, you can not sell a striped down car, it still has to have a basic equipment and some basic sound insulation.

Weight is the most limiting factor when it comes to track performance.

[carbsmith]

The race cars are going to be ridiculously heavy, it's not as big of a difference as you'd think.

Road hypercars are generally in the region of as fast as GT3s around a track, obviously depending on the layout quite a bit. I think it's very much possible for a road legal car to be faster than a GTE at Le Mans but it would still be quite a large gap to bridge to 3:25-3:30 showroom stock.

[TF110]

I guess it depends on how far they take the GR SuperSport or whatever they'll call it. If they really use a TS050 chassis and powertrain, it's already 90% of the way an lmp1 on the street. I think a prototype hypercar will be 3:25's pretty easily next season. The aero is free, only a soft cap from what we know. Power is going to be higher than non-hybrid lmp1's from this year. The weight is the biggest issue. But Super GT had GT500 cars at 1100kg before they moved to the DTM rules and they were easily faster than lmp2's from the same time period. Those cars only made around 600hp, so I think it shouldn't be a problem to reach those times with a properly designed race car. Road cars, who knows?