[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

That's the wrong way of looking at it. Hopefully the wiring loom has been redesigned/refitted so that a sensor failure won't kill the electronics this time.

Allow me to be pedantic and remind everyone that Lapierre's contact with Bonanomi did not cause the damage that retired the #3 Audi (thank Sam Bird in the #81 Ferrari for that). In comparison to that rear-ending the P1 cars merely had a smooch, and at that point the #8 Toyota had already hit the barrier.

Sensors suplied by the fia should not fail. It caused an issue with another car, a 458, is that the team's or the fia's fault? Iirc, it was an additional sensor that they weren't even required to run

Originally Posted by Articus

You would say that .

Last week I looked, the total was around 20,000km so I wasn't up on their last mileage It wasn't a slant against them if thats what youre hinting at.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by TF110

Sensors suplied by the fia should not fail. It caused an issue with another car, a 458, is that the team's or the fia's fault? Iirc, it was an additional sensor that they weren't even required to run

Well, the question here is how the sensor's failure melted the wire loom. You should design the wiring in a way that one failure doesn't cause additional problems.

But in reality, Toyota should not have won anyway. They were using an electronic braking distribution system which the rules did not allow, and also a very illegal flexible rear wing. The EOT is also solely in their favor, limiting not only the fuel tank and fuel flow for the diesels, but also the energy fed to the diesel. If the rules were not biased, Audi would have had the Toyotas for breakfast. And even then, once Audi got their setup right, Lotterer set fastest and second fastest lap for the race, despite the N8 Toyota still pushing.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

Sensors supplied by the fia should not fail. It caused an issue with another car, a 458, is that the team's or the fia's fault? Iirc, it was an additional sensor that they weren't even required to run

Should-a, could-a, would-a counts for nothing when the unexpected does happen. Teams should be preparing for every reasonable eventuality. Given the concern over the FIA fuel sensors shown by the factories earlier in the season, malfunctions or failures of other sensors (mandated or otherwise) should have been taken into account. TMG didn't do this and unfortunately it cost the #7 car the race.

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

BTW, it was the team's fault in the 458 case as well, for the same reason it was Toyota's fault in the #7. The same way it would be Audi or Porsche's fault should it have happened to their cars.

Originally Posted by bobec

Well, the question here is how the sensor's failure melted the wire loom. You should design the wiring in a way that one failure doesn't cause additional problems.

Did we ever find out exactly what that sensor was measuring? It would have needed to be connected to the loom, but perhaps it could have been placed further away so that the loom was less likely to be damaged by the heat/debris. IIRC it melted through the whole thing and that killed the electronics, but the engineers could tell from the telemetry that it was happening. Sad way to end the race, not one I'd want to see repeated.

[Deleted]

Agree, you cannot blame anyone else than Toyota for that. Should've prepared like all the others.

But what bobec claimed, that I don't buy, the only thing going against Audi last year was the late change in ERS specs, but even that doesn't really hold up in court. No last minute Toyota fuel and restrictor breaks like in 2013

[bobec]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Did we ever find out exactly what that sensor was measuring?

Haven't looked into it for a while, but it was said it was a mandatory FIA sensor

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Chiana

But what bobec claimed, that I don't buy, the only thing going against Audi last year was the late change in ERS specs, but even that doesn't really hold up in court. No last minute Toyota fuel and restrictor breaks like in 2013

I think the EOT restrictions on diesels may have been made more severe "last minute" I have found one EOT LMP1 chart from end of 2013 for the 2014 season, and then there was another one published in spring 2014, with harsher limitations on the diesel class.

But that is not the point. I understand the smaller fuel tanks and more constrained fuel flow/hr, but giving the diesels harsher MJ/lap restrictions is biased and unfair. I guess that is why they call it Equivalence of Technology (balance of performance). But it is effectively punishing a technology that has become very dominant, which it has done by becoming more and more efficient through participating in the event and series for years. Hopefully this would make it only more efficient.

[Adam43]

bobec, welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by bobec

But in reality, Toyota should not have won anyway. ....

TF110, meet bobec. bobec, meet TF110.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

TF110, meet bobec. bobec, meet TF110.

Round 1! Ding, ding ,ding.

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

the 2-3 seconds prediction surely is about LM...

I hope not seeing what Porsche have done

[Spyderman]

I'm sure Toyota are playing their cards close to their chest. They will be very quick.

[gustavobamba]

Toyota are hiding thir game

[GT6]

They may be but you would think that with 3 seconds gap they may have tried to close the gap a little after seeing what the porsche was doing

[deggis]

Old news but didn't see the 2017 commitment being posted as an actual quote:

http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...ce-wec-in-2017

Toyota Motorsport GmbH team director Rob Leupens told AUTOSPORT: "We can say that we are committed for at least three more years; we want to stop discussions that the WRC programme will replace the WEC. We have discussed it with Toyota and they have made that commitment.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I'm sure Toyota are playing their cards close to their chest. They will be very quick.

Last year was the same, Porsche started showing off at the test while TMG didn't even bother to go for really quick times.

They're good at keeping it cool, I don't think they'll reveal the car's potential before Silverstone Q.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Considering that Porsche have managed to save more than 30kg to put the car to the minimum regulatory weight while stepping up at the same time to 8MJ (that is quite an achievement one must admit), I would expect that Porsche will be very strong in terms of pure single-lap performance. That would be the most likely candidate for the top spot in qualifications IMHO.

I am a bit surprised that Toyota did not follow Porsche's path up the ERS scale. That's a conservative "evolutionary step" (the most conservative of the three Big Ones as a matter of fact) and it will be interesting to see if Toyota have been able to build up on the strengths of last year's car and extract even more performance.

Audi should be strong as well and I would expect them to be much closer to Toyota this year.

This promises a very interesting season.

I'm sure Toyota tested 8MJ, but one major problem i see is that while battery technology it has half of the R&D world trying to get more wh/kg, capacitors lag considerably behind... probably Porsche managed to get more energy density battery packs so the weight will be the ~same, while Toyota with the actual capacitor tech it would had been more 33.3% more weight of capacitor pack for the 8MJ...

That is the major reason... so probably they will have a tweaked engine with perhaps a little more displacement to compensate, and on 'aeros' they are really top of the playing field

[TF110]

Originally Posted by bobec

Well, the question here is how the sensor's failure melted the wire loom. You should design the wiring in a way that one failure doesn't cause additional problems.

But in reality, Toyota should not have won anyway. They were using an electronic braking distribution system which the rules did not allow, and also a very illegal flexible rear wing. The EOT is also solely in their favor, limiting not only the fuel tank and fuel flow for the diesels, but also the energy fed to the diesel. If the rules were not biased, Audi would have had the Toyotas for breakfast. And even then, once Audi got their setup right, Lotterer set fastest and second fastest lap for the race, despite the N8 Toyota still pushing.

No rear wing tricks after LM. Brake system was allowed, even after the protest. Now Audi has the same type of system Yeah the #8 car wasn't lighting up the timing screens. Kinda had a major crash though.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by bobec

Well, the question here is how the sensor's failure melted the wire loom. You should design the wiring in a way that one failure doesn't cause additional problems.

But in reality, Toyota should not have won anyway. They were using an electronic braking distribution system which the rules did not allow, and also a very illegal flexible rear wing. The EOT is also solely in their favor, limiting not only the fuel tank and fuel flow for the diesels, but also the energy fed to the diesel. If the rules were not biased, Audi would have had the Toyotas for breakfast. And even then, once Audi got their setup right, Lotterer set fastest and second fastest lap for the race, despite the N8 Toyota still pushing.

Well the melted wire did a great service to the FIA/ACO lol... it would had been a scandal (IMO)... tough the 'braking by wire' is not allowed, Toyota system is not 'by wire' (i think) but inside the same logic of a FRIC suspension... but that 'movable' rear wing was a gross violation of the rules.. a scandal if allowed to crown a victor with that, even more scandal is how it did pass the technical verifications !!! ( yet even so i suspect if none had any problems Audi would end up catching th Toyota... perhaps even winning)

About engine i agree with you, retire the corrective factors that are a gross violation of the spirit of the rules, its supposed the more efficient tech have benefice, which is what all teams search, so its a contradiction to penalize one engine tech exactly because is inherently more efficient, and more so because its available to everybody ( diesel its not, and doesn't have to be, exclusive of Audi... and teams search for every bit of efficiency... so there you have it naturally)

No doubt... without the *abhorrent corrective factors* Audi i'm convinced would have a V8 with more displacement and would be also at least in the 6MJ class

So after Lotterer getting the fastest of all in 2014 LM with a skunk-work that was supposed to have ERS-H and then didn't... with way less fuel energy available and on 2MJ class... wonder what 'energetic parity' would do!...

[YorkshireLad]

http://youtu.be/sc8m3RBP2_M Love this video from toyota, finally see some parts of the mysterious v8.

[TF110]

Cars switched up today. #1 crew running the high d/f version while the #2 takes their first shot at the low d/f version. This test is the first time theyve ran the LM package.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Cars switched up today. #1 crew running the high d/f version while the #2 takes their first shot at the low d/f version. This test is the first time theyve ran the LM package.

Any pictures available ?

[kvenom]

Toyota better be hiding something massive, because Porsche look frighteningly quick.

[Hiro]

Originally Posted by TF110

Cars switched up today. #1 crew running the high d/f version while the #2 takes their first shot at the low d/f version. This test is the first time theyve ran the LM package.

Haven't they tested the L d/f package before the prologue?

[cokata]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Toyota better be hiding something massive, because Porsche look frighteningly quick.

I don't think so. It's like at Le Mans 2013 when a lot of people thought Toyota were sandbagging, even after qually. But the truth is if you are trying to hide your pace you wouldn't do it by 3 seconds gap on 6km circuit.

The only way is see that Porsche won't be much quicker than them is if they don't comply with the fuel and hybrid allocation at the moment. But i seriously doubt that they would do that.

[J Jay]

Speaking of that, what are Toyota's average [quick] laps like in comparison to Porsche's? We know Porsche have been yoyo-ing to get the fast laps, but if Toyota (and Audi) can stay close and set consistent laps then it will be closer than the record-breaking laps make it appear.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Speaking of that, what are Toyota's average [quick] laps like in comparison to Porsche's? We know Porsche have been yoyo-ing to get the fast laps, but if Toyota (and Audi) can stay close and set consistent laps then it will be closer than the record-breaking laps make it appear.

From what i'm seeing the long runs also look slow. This year we might see Porsche and Audi have a good fight, and toyota in the role that audi had last season (hopelessly off the pace most of the time).