Interesting points regarding DP's

[billnchristy]

Here are the dimensional bodywork specs for daytona prototypes and 2004 ACO LM prototypes:

DP

Wheelbase 108-110"
Length 175-180"
Width 77-79"
Height 41"
Ground Clearance 1.5"

LM

Wheelbase Free
Length 186"
Width 80"
Height 40"
Ground Clearance 2"

Wow I guess its that lack of 6" that makes em ugly huh?

[Russfeld]

Basically

[RM40]

No, the stupid (for design, but good for safety) cockpit rules make them ugly.

[gttouring]

yes the near full width roofline, and windscreen which must be as wide from top to bottom is what makes them ugly the Doran and multimatic being the absolute best, and would look good in any race format, the Fabcar which was one of the first and is doing rather well is the hideous soapbar that gets the most press and is not fun to look at, and the picchio blech! and do you have to root up a bad design withan even worse paint job spots!
if doran was the first DP out and Multimatic was its major competition perhaps these would geta better reception-even if multimatic won the opener at daytona, the terrible Brumos cars left a big black eye on many viewers.
I do like them now for sure, if the cost would stay as is and the chassis rules could be had so anyone can make one (now approval of chassis and bodywork must be okayed on paper before construction and use...) maybe we will have the new greatsportscar formula, rightnow it seems (especially with certain spec components coming from competitors shops-p&m i believe) it just seems off balance.
let GARRA produce and sell parts to competitors which are spec'd and let everyone with a welder and a supply of carbonfibre sheets and an oven get to work, it could be just awesome- like Formula Vee and FF is almost anyone can come and play

[BobN]

The same thing is true of people too. You can have basically the same dimensions and have one women very pretty and another butt-ugly, One could be smart and funny and the other nasty and stupid. It takes the whole package.

Maybe the Daytona prototypes have real good personalities.

[billnchristy]

I think it would take a more artistic design and maybe the cars could look better...although they do, like i said before, look much better in person.

Strangely enough, the Fabcar is starting to grow on me, I like the Dorans, but the multimatic is losing its charm...cant wait to see the R&S, Craqwford and Chase cars!

[MulsanneMike]

Absolute dimensions are one thing, proportion is another. The simple relationship of the dimensions is what translates into elegance. The ancient Greeks discovered this and came up with their explanation of it as "Golden Ratio" proportion rule.

[LouisTheShark]

Your post reminded me of an ISC study I heard about a few years ago.

They compared the on-track presence of stock cars, open wheel cars, and sports cars. The conclusion of the study was that cars with closed cockpits and simple body curves (ie. less aerodynamic trickery) were much easier for fans to follow in person and on TV. Also, the larger and simpler surface areas of stock cars and the old GTP cars offers sponsors more creativity for a unique identity and better recognition. Apparently, the open cockpit sports cars were only marginally better in on-track presence than open wheel cars.

Look at the pictures and compare the old GTP type cars to a Bentley. In the old GTP days the closed cockpit cars had a much simpler body shape and offered more advertising friendly surface area. The Bentleys have a lot of swooping curves which reduces the usable advertising space.

With ISC being such a marketing concious enterprise, I ask myself if they put this thought into the DP design. It sure looks like they did.

http://www.grandamerican.com/photos/...260&photo=1877
http://www.grand-am.com/photos/zoom....=125&photo=766
http://www.imsaracing.net/2003/cars/...5.cfm?carnum=8
http://www.hsrrace.com/03_daytona/im...G_0307_jpg.jpg
http://www.hsrrace.com/03_daytona/im...G_9465_jpg.jpg

[paul-collins]

...So you're saying their starting point for a design wasn't a car, it was a billboard?

While I think your point is a valid one, I also think that creative design of a car's livery can overcome the limitations of the shape.

And, of course, the Bentley was designed to advertise one thing only, and that was Bentley.

[Tim Northcutt]

That could be, Louis...but remember..."Brownie Boy" on the front cowling of the Pilbeam was pretty prominent...and some would probably say just as ugly and obnoxious....

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by billnchristy
Here are the dimensional bodywork specs for daytona prototypes and 2004 ACO LM prototypes:

DP

Wheelbase 108-110"
...
Wow I guess its that lack of 6" that makes em ugly huh?

What makes them ugly is that they're measured in inches.

[pirenzo]

Mike is right. It's all about Proportions. There's an interesting poster up in my school maths dept. about the Golden Ratio. It occurs in nature. It's roughly 1:1.6
Just taking the human body, according to this poster, your thigh is 1.6 times bigger than your lower leg, your shoulders are 1.6 times bigger than the height of your head, your legs are 1.6 times longer than your torso.
By the same token, i guess the perfect sports car roof bubble would be 1.6 times longer than it is wide, 1.6 times wider than it is high, and 1.6 time wider at it's base than at the top.

[BobN]

Originally posted by LouisTheShark
Your post reminded me of an ISC study I heard about a few years ago.

With ISC being such a marketing concious enterprise, I ask myself if they put this thought into the DP design. It sure looks like they did.

You have always come across as a ISC type thinker and as you point out they don't care about the sport as anything but business (ugly, slow cars are best because they make better billboards) although I'd been led to believe that signage and fans don't matter, so you can see the confusion. Perhaps ISC's view of the sport can help you understand why those with a passion for sportscars view ISC with such low regard at times.

Maybe if my passion were business I would see it more like the business types, but I doubt it because if business were my passion I would probably stick to forums discussing mergers and ratios and such. Thank goodness there are those that take the time away from their otherwise important business day in the racing industry to help try and make life simple for all the uniformed sportscar fans by exposing the errors of their ways.

[gttouring]

I would like to add that the title of this thread is incendiary.
No one truly hates DP's, but dislikes them and how they are meant to usurp LMP and LMGTP cars from Daytona24 and possibly anywhere else, as they have a distinct GTP flavor to them.
they have grown on me, and Louis the shark i see your example of DP used was the Doran Toyota, and not the Fabcar Brumos porsche thing. the evidence presented biases the view in favor of the more pleaseant and meaniful looking DP versus the grimy pictures of the betley (the former Lista LMP was quite nice.) shades of the Oj simpsons trial and the infamous Time Magazine cover

[pirenzo]

I don't hate them. In fact, i thought they were a good idea till i saw the rules, and the monsters that became of those rules.
They're trying to do the right thing, but they're desperately slow, and really limiting formula rules.

[Liz]

I don't hate them. I just think they're unattractive. As mentioned above, perhaps they have nice personalities. Or large bank accounts. Or brothers.

[thebear]

Originally posted by Liz
I don't hate them. I just think they're unattractive. As mentioned above, perhaps they have nice personalities. Or large bank accounts. Or brothers.

The livery makes a big difference in the appearance. As previously mentioned the 'polka dots' do leave something to be desired. The Doran (#27) can fool you. The wing is black and not obvious against the red/white livery when viewed from the side.

[billnchristy]

Ok, I guess hate is a strong word...
I like how some are quick to point out what a horrible concept having a good space for advertising is when it is the lifeblood of the sport, not to mention the fact that GTPs, which some people praise and worship, had a similar design.

[avsfan733]

Originally posted by BobN

Maybe the Daytona prototypes have real good personalities.

[BobN]

Originally posted by billnchristy
Ok, I guess hate is a strong word...
I like how some are quick to point out what a horrible concept having a good space for advertising is when it is the lifeblood of the sport, not to mention the fact that GTPs, which some people praise and worship, had a similar design.

I see you have missed the point. It is NOT a horrible concept to pay attention to good space for advertising. It IS a horrible concept if it the the driving force behind your racing platform if you care one iota about the sporting aspect of racing. I realize it is BOTH sport and business. Not just ONE aspect. That is what is so funny in reading the "insiders" point of view. They see it as black or white, no shades of grey. To them it is ALL about business with no room for sport (unless it is a happenstance byproduct). The sport (cars, fans, etc.) are all just a nuisance to them.

[gttouring]

i was one of the first to protest i feel, about the GARRA move to displace a world format, after they had begun with it. Now isee what they might try to accomplish, I rather like the racing -as any racing is good, and the few attractive DP's (if we can say that iin one sentence) are the ones that have peaked my interest. Although why rear wheel covers aren't allowed by the rules i don't know, i think it might add to the advertising space and might set them apart from LMGTP, and LMP's which seems like were the cause of their creation. set them apart further i mean, as they really don't look or are built anything alike (save the Dyson tube frame R&S chassis comparos for later)

[Fab]

The early 80' GTP were not very nice, BTW... I can't stand the Rondeau, the Fords were ugly, and the Lancia were not a success as well, estheticaly I mean...

Just to give precisions : I don't hate G/A, I'm just more a fan of Le Mans series/FIA-GT ; most of us have nothing agaisnt G/A, so let's give up this "you hate G/A" song, which, I think, has no meaning.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by gttouring
I would like to add that the title of this thread is incendiary.

I agree entirely. And quite frankly I'm totally fed up with the sniping that threads such as this seem to be producing. I don't hate 'em - I don't know enough about 'em to hate 'em. I know they're not what I particularly want to watch, but......

[Mal]

Fab, I am afraid I have to disagree on the Lancia which I think was a superb looking car.

With regard to GA I have not and will not express an opinion as GA has so little exposure over here that I really know nothing about it.

[Nordic]

Fab how can you not like the Lancia? I thought it was the best looking Grp C car! (I liked the C100 as well! but agree on the Rondeau that horrible slopeing back creation was the not good).