The Historically Accurate EV discussion

[crmalcolm]

Developments in the future of EVs:

VW are not looking at hydrogen in the near future for cars, concentrating on EVs and hybrids.
'Matthias Rabe, “as a group we look in that [hydrogen] direction, for Volkswagen in the near future it’s not an option”. Rabe believes hydrogen technology is best suited to commercial vehicles.'

Cupra still plan to introduce non-hybrids in the short term.
'“Even after the impact of CO2, the 300bhp powertrain is still very profitable to us,” said Cupra CEO Wayne Griffiths. “I would never limit Cupra.”'

Smart are focusing entirely on EVs, and Daimler has entered into partnership with Geely.
'Markus Schäfer “Working with Geely, we have access to larger scales, Geely’s know-how and close co-operation with Volvo and our know-how of Smart and its history.”'

[grantp]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Developments in the future of EVs:

VW are not looking at hydrogen in the near future for cars, concentrating on EVs and hybrids.
'Matthias Rabe, “as a group we look in that [hydrogen] direction, for Volkswagen in the near future it’s not an option”. Rabe believes hydrogen technology is best suited to commercial vehicles.'

Cupra still plan to introduce non-hybrids in the short term.
'“Even after the impact of CO2, the 300bhp powertrain is still very profitable to us,” said Cupra CEO Wayne Griffiths. “I would never limit Cupra.”'

Smart are focusing entirely on EVs, and Daimler has entered into partnership with Geely.
'Markus Schäfer “Working with Geely, we have access to larger scales, Geely’s know-how and close co-operation with Volvo and our know-how of Smart and its history.”'

When governments make laws that kill your products by sleight of hand it is eventually necessary to adopt the path of least resistance or close down.

Whether it turns out to be a good thing for "the planet" or not may never be known since, as with so many things that rely on advice from green "science" - there is no way to run a controlled test or anything close to an "experiment" that is truly meaningful.

The results of such policies and the abandonment of tried and tested methods can be observed on a daily basis at this time.

There is a fairly strong case for suggesting that an "all change" solution to move on form the benefits of fossil fuel use, and to do so so quickly, is in fact a desperate attempt by those who have influence over the money and policy to force something "new" and needing significant investment and infrastructure development in order to galvanise a global economy that has barely been treading water, in real terms, for at least 12 years and possibly over 20 years.

A last throw of the dice in an attempt to keep some sort of recognisable "growth" to the forefront of humanity's perception and avoid a rapid contraction that few would enjoy, though no doubt some may find opportunities for self advancement.

That many seem to be suggesting that the Covid19 challenge is a good time to take stock and "change the world" is interesting - especially if the intent is jump straight out of Business as it was into the new Lockdown guided Business2020 model.

If people are, quite soon, mostly working from home and having stuff delivered to their houses they may decide that a car is a pointless expense.

If so a lot of the current assumptions will be wide of the mark.

The existing car manufacturers will likely be looking at much lower volumes and, I would suggest, a very different "customer" model much more akin to supplying mainly rental operations.

How many of them are ready for that transition? How close would that model remain to the existing Lease company interface between manufacturer and consumer?

How long before VW come under Chinese ownership?

Smart are still around? And working with Geely? Does that mean there will be a Smart Lotus battery-with-wheels branded Centrica?

How about a Shell Car-i-pace?

[S griffin]

I wonder how much the government are really behind it. Ok they will push the green credentials and they will look at science, but they will look at other alternatives too. Don’t worry, electric cars haven’t taken over yet. There’s still time. The current cars still have a place, especially with things like biofuel. When this whole situation is over, more focus will be put into green technology. But it won’t be all electric

[Peter Mallett]

With all the asserted problems, we are ignoring the amount of fun these things can provide. Think about it, we have people looking askance when we drive our gas guzzlers but the fact you can use "ludicrous mode" in a Tesla; or, "Unbridled" in the Mach E means we can burn rubber and still appear to be saving the planet!

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I wonder how much the government are really behind it. Ok they will push the green credentials and they will look at science, but they will look at other alternatives too. Don’t worry, electric cars haven’t taken over yet. There’s still time. The current cars still have a place, especially with things like biofuel. When this whole situation is over, more focus will be put into green technology. But it won’t be all electric

It might be a bit too much to hope for common sense out of Politicians .
Germany , which has a lot of Green Party politicians , has been talking about a Diesel ban in their cities for some time .
After a month of lockdown & massive reductions of traffic , the air quality in cities , [ which was the claimed reason for a diesel ban ,] has proved to be no different from normal seasonal variations , so obviously not caused by traffic .
A German Transport Minister made a statement that , because the traffic was not the cause of the emissions , the ban on diesels was no longer being considered .
https://www.focus.de/auto/news/focus...I-6zPzVtRMoZVU

But this did not go down well with some of the Politicians & was very quickly removed from the online news site . [ Germany has some of the worst censorship in Europe ].
This news item can still be found on " Wayback " , but I doubt that very few people have seen it .
So when politicians try to hide the truth , you can be fairly sure that they are not going to do anything sensible but stick to their own agenda .

[Peter Mallett]

Not surprised since Germany has more coal fired power plants than other EU States.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I wonder how much the government are really behind it.

Behind what - the need to provide a better future?

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ok they will push the green credentials and they will look at science, but they will look at other alternatives too.

What's the alternative to science?

Originally Posted by S griffin

Don’t worry, electric cars haven’t taken over yet. There’s still time. The current cars still have a place, especially with things like biofuel.

But eventually EVs will be the standard car, and everything will be better for it.

Originally Posted by S griffin

When this whole situation is over, more focus will be put into green technology. But it won’t be all electric

When the need to save the planet is over? Do you mean once we've accepted the truth, realised that action is required, and developed the technology for everyone to drive carbon-neutral?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

After a month of lockdown & massive reductions of traffic , the air quality in cities , [ which was the claimed reason for a diesel ban ,] has proved to be no different from normal seasonal variations , so obviously not caused by traffic .
[...]
So when politicians try to hide the truth , you can be fairly sure that they are not going to do anything sensible but stick to their own agenda .

There's one thing trying to prove a point with internet evidence. It's another to ignore parts of the evidence presented when they don't fit the agenda.

'Das UBA verwies laut FOCUS darauf, dass auch Wind, Temperaturen und Niederschlag sich auf die Luftqualität auswirkten. Der Zeitraum sei außerdem noch zu kurz, um Effekte des Shutdowns beurteilen zu können.'

But, I'm not surprised that the article was written and then pulled. Because of it being inconvenient? No. Because it was an invalid correlation? Yes.

NO2 levels vary because of a lot of factors, including seasonal weather.
NO2 levels are contributed to by a lot of sources, not just diesel engines.

Do diesel engines increase NO2 levels? - Yes.
Will having less diesel engines reduce NO2 levels? - Yes.
Will that reduction be measurable in the short term? - Inconclusive.
Will that reduction be measurable over decades? - Yes.
Will NO2 levels reduce dramatically? - Not by removing diesel engines alone.
Diesel engines are one of many sources, and only when all sources are reduced significantly will the benefits be clear.

Which leaves us with an invalid assumption that a short term measure of NO2 levels is a sign that diesel engines do not contribute to the results.
'you can be fairly sure that the article writers are not going to do anything sensible but stick to their own agenda'

[morninggents]

I have driven a BMW i3 a few times and quite enjoyed the actual driving experience but all the time had the fear of 'running out of juice' at the back of my mind which more than outweighed the pleasure of the driving experience. I suppose if I owned an EV that feeling would fade away eventually.
Are any of the current crop of EVs capable of towing things like loaded race car trailers, loaded horse boxes, caravans, etc?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I have driven a BMW i3 a few times and quite enjoyed the actual driving experience but all the time had the fear of 'running out of juice' at the back of my mind which more than outweighed the pleasure of the driving experience. I suppose if I owned an EV that feeling would fade away eventually.
Are any of the current crop of EVs capable of towing things like loaded race car trailers, loaded horse boxes, caravans, etc?

Currently the only full EV is the Tesla Model X - its limit is 2,270kg.
In the hybrid market - Golf GTE, A3 sportback e-tron, Outlander PHEV, Passat GTE, V60 and C350e are all rated for towing.
Above 2,000kg, your options include:
XC90 T8, X5 40e and Q7 e-tron are all rated.
If you really need the capacity, the Cayenne S E-Hybrid can tow a 3,500kg braked trailer.

One point noted on this, that you allude to, is that manufacturers are conscious of people's 'range anxiety', and towing can impact on the range. As a result, not as many models get put through the homologation requirements for towing.
It's strange how people seem to accept that their mpg will be massively impacted by towing, but expect e-range to not be?

As the charging networks continue to grow, and the replenishment rates improve, 'range anxiety' will disappear.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I have driven a BMW i3 a few times and quite enjoyed the actual driving experience but all the time had the fear of 'running out of juice' at the back of my mind which more than outweighed the pleasure of the driving experience. I suppose if I owned an EV that feeling would fade away eventually.
Are any of the current crop of EVs capable of towing things like loaded race car trailers, loaded horse boxes, caravans, etc?

The Tesla X is one of the very few rated for towing . But at a max of 2 & 1/4 tons . And even going steady the range will drop by 50% to 60% .
So expect to have to charge up after about 100 odd miles towing at a normal speed .

[S griffin]

The Tesla company don’t care about towing. Otherwise they wouldn’t have built it that heavy. All they care about is building a specialist electric car. It might threaten the normal gas vehicles yet, but it’s worth it’s place

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

And even going steady the range will drop by 50% to 60% .
So expect to have to charge up after about 100 odd miles towing at a normal speed .

50% of 314 miles > 100 odd.

Realistically your looking at >150 miles, which is more likely to take in excess of 3 hours. So probably a good time for a break anyway.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

50% of 314 miles > 100 odd.

Realistically your looking at >150 miles, which is more likely to take in excess of 3 hours. So probably a good time for a break anyway.

What Car , & most other real world tests put the X at 235 odd miles .So 50 or 60 % off that is a max of 100 odd miles .

[S griffin]

It’s always good to use what car. Their car reviews are very well done

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It's strange how people seem to accept that their mpg will be massively impacted by towing, but expect e-range to not be?

I don't think its that people expect e-range not to be impacted - simply that whilst an ICE car will suffer increased consumption (in my experience about 25% more, generally) that issue is overcome with a 3-minute pit-stop. With an electric, its probably more like an hour. In the last year I've towed a car from Lancashire to near Paignton, to Hayling Island, and to North of Newcastle, and collected cars from near Norwich and from near Bristol. None of those would have been feasible same-day trips with the necessary stops for recharge.



On the other hand an e-car would be a great replacement for milady's Panda which is our local runabout - but it cost £280, and there aren't any cheap second-hand electrics about

[S griffin]

I don’t think towing is the matter too. The problem is they still haven’t quite far enough with the charging stations. It still takes time, but hopefully one day it will be perfected. It may take time. The good thing is gas cars are still going to be useful for some time

[S griffin]

I think though EV cars aren’t exactly practical when it comes to towing. It needs longer life before we can think about that. It’s not got to that stage yet. Give it time and we will see more electric cars. Just enjoy the old gas cars for now

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

What Car , & most other real world tests put the X at 235 odd miles .So 50 or 60 % off that is a max of 100 odd miles .

That's the old model.

[S griffin]

How much more up to date is the newer model?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

I don't think its that people expect e-range not to be impacted - simply that whilst an ICE car will suffer increased consumption (in my experience about 25% more, generally)

From that experience, shouldn't we expect range to only drop by 25%, not the 50-60% claimed?

I'm not sure what the real impact is on range, just going on what has been suggested here.

[Cliff Ryan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Currently the only full EV is the Tesla Model X - its limit is 2,270kg.
In the hybrid market - Golf GTE, A3 sportback e-tron, Outlander PHEV, Passat GTE, V60 and C350e are all rated for towing.
Above 2,000kg, your options include:
XC90 T8, X5 40e and Q7 e-tron are all rated.
If you really need the capacity, the Cayenne S E-Hybrid can tow a 3,500kg braked trailer.

One point noted on this, that you allude to, is that manufacturers are conscious of people's 'range anxiety', and towing can impact on the range. As a result, not as many models get put through the homologation requirements for towing.
It's strange how people seem to accept that their mpg will be massively impacted by towing, but expect e-range to not be?

As the charging networks continue to grow, and the replenishment rates improve, 'range anxiety' will disappear.

I have followed this thread and all it’s mud slinging with interest, as I looked into replacing my petrol Supercharged Range Rover with an EV a couple of years ago & came to the conclusion that it’s not quite time for an EV yet, mainly due to the lack of infrastructure.

I don’t do diesel due to the fact I’m a petrolhead and I personally have a problem with all the unburnt hydrocarbons emitted by Diesel engines. I do think that EVs are the way forward but every manufacturers sales division went into a blind panic when I asked about towing capacity, saying that they weren’t designed for towing over any distance.

My Range Rover does 17mpg in the real world whether I am towing or not, it doesn’t change. My litmus test is whether or not I am able to tow a trailer weighing 2500kg plus a reasonable safety margin to Spa without refuelling, which is a distance of 350 miles. I couldn’t find anything that would match this, so decided to hang on to my current car for a while longer.

BTW my mucker from this parish went through the same process at the same time as me and changed his Volvo for an I3 as he also has a Vito to tow with.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

With all the asserted problems, we are ignoring the amount of fun these things can provide. Think about it, we have people looking askance when we drive our gas guzzlers but the fact you can use "ludicrous mode" in a Tesla; or, "Unbridled" in the Mach E means we can burn rubber and still appear to be saving the planet!

And, in the case of Tesla, report back to base about the fun you are having.

For the others ... nothing like having everything recorded in a black box for when required by ... whoever decides they require it.

Of course the current crop of new ICE vehicles are not entirely free of such "benefits".

[grantp]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The Tesla company don’t care about towing. Otherwise they wouldn’t have built it that heavy. All they care about is building a specialist electric car. It might threaten the normal gas vehicles yet, but it’s worth it’s place

It uses batteries.

As things stand "heavy" is normal. There is no realistic "light" option.

There are plenty of people in the US (where towing may be a more common pass time than in the UK) who have run so me test and measurements for typical use comparing Model X and an equivalent ICE vehicle.

A number of videos available in You Tube if of interest.

The special problem in the US is that it's a big country with a lot of great and remote countryside, big hills and mountains and a lot of remoteness that some locals, often truck and SUV buyers, like to use.

With an ICE vehicle you can take a lot of additional energy, in the form of Gas or Diesel, in quite a compact volume and not too much weight. Just in case your remote destination has not gas nearby.

With an electric vehicle that option is, as yet, non-existent to rare.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Cliff Ryan

I don’t do diesel due to the fact I’m a petrolhead and I personally have a problem with all the unburnt hydrocarbons emitted by Diesel engines. I do think that EVs are the way forward but every manufacturers sales division went into a blind panic when I asked about towing capacity, saying that they weren’t designed for towing over any distance.

It's clear that EVs are not suitable for a lot of the towing situations people are looking for (yet). Maybe they won't ever meet all of the requirements, but perhaps our view needs to change and we have to rely on specialist towing firms?

Already, fewer and fewer drivers have the categories on their license to tow anything meaningful, and manufacturers are also less interested in the homologation requirements.
The same is true of all PU types it seems. A query a couple of years ago in a MB dealership about the towing capacity of a GLE was met with 'errr, I might have to phone the factory to see if we can get the spec'. Then again, the sales rep was keen to show me how good the sloping rear hatch made the car look more coupe-ish. I pointed out that it made the entry awkward for a large dog, and he was flummoxed.

EVs are always improving, both in range and capability. The infrastructure is also on an improving curve. As more and more drivers adopt the technology, economies of scale will come into force for manufacturers to introduce wider ranges to meet requirements that become less 'niche'.